British Wheelchair Basketball with Team GB Player Sophie Carrigill

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On this episode of Tea Time, Skylar Smith and Brian Bosché are joined by Team GB Wheelchair Basketball Player Sophie Carrigill. Sophie has won a Gold medal at the 2015 Women’s U25 Wheelchair Basketball World Championship in Beijing, placed Fourth at the 2016 Paralympics in Brazil, and won the Silver medal at the 2018 Wheelchair Basketball World Championship in Germany. Skylar and Brian chat with Sophie about Wheelchair Basketball 101, training for the Tokyo Paralympics, and the Inspire a Generation programme to grow wheelchair basketball in the UK.

Follow Sophie on Instagram and Twitter.

Full Transcript:

Brian Bosche:
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to High Tea Hoops, this is Brian Bosche at the Duke of Hoops, and I am joined by Skylar Smith as always, what's up Duchess?

Skylar Smith:
Hello, so excited for today's pod.

Brian Bosche:
Me too.

Skylar Smith:
Very [inaudible 00:00:13].

Brian Bosche:
Super special one, your mic is little quiet again, Skylar.

Skylar Smith:
You don't call me out on the podcast.

Brian Bosche:
I'm going to call you out during the intro, we need that strong Skylar voice. But today we are joined by a very special guest, Sophie Carrigill, British Wheelchair Basketball player for Great Britain, who has won the gold at the 2015 Women's U25 Wheelchair Basketball Championships in Beijing, placed fourth at the 2016 Paralympics in Rio in Brazil. And most recently got silver at the 2018 Wheelchair Basketball World Championships in Germany.

Brian Bosche:
And a very exciting update, British Wheelchair Basketball, just launched an inspire a generation program to double participation in the sport. The new program driven by British Wheelchair Basketball and supported by 1.5 million pounds of Sport England Funding, is engaging in inactive population through inclusive activity. So Sophie, that is one of our best intros, welcome to the show, we're so excited to have you.

Sophie Carrigill:
Oh, thanks so much. I'm excited to be on. I can't wait to talk to you guys.

Brian Bosche:
It's an exciting time in British Wheelchair Basketball with the new initiative, the new funding, preparing for Tokyo. But before we jump into all of that, I just want to get a sense, we do this on almost every episode. Were you a basketball fan growing up? What was basketball culture like when you were growing up in the UK?

Sophie Carrigill:
Non existent in my opinion, and it's so great why you guys are doing this, and getting the word out there about basketball, because you're so right, it's so far behind in the UK and it's something we are so desperate to change. But I guess, when I was growing up, also basketball was predominantly a men's sport. It was never really shown to women or encouraged to play by girls. At school, whereas I played netball instead I played tennis, I did athletics.

Sophie Carrigill:
The system I suppose puts you in line with those sports that are may be more gender biased as opposed to play those which is such a shame. But now you see basketball played so widely that that has obviously changed. God, it's a long time since I was back at school. Things are changing, but for me, I was not a fan and I'd never played, I think I'd shop around a bit, messing about at lunchtime or something in the games lesson, but that was about it. Really it was a whole new sport when I first started to play it.

Brian Bosche:
It's interesting, we just had Malita Emmanuel Carr, who played for a GB in the Commonwealth games and they got silver. So the women outperform the men in many cases in the UK, same for the women in the US, our US women's soccer team is incredible to the men. The men didn't even make it to the World Cup and the women are winning. The disparity is definitely there, but with the growth of the WBBL, the growth of grassroots basketball in the UK, it seems like there's a lot more interest in it growing which is great to see.

Brian Bosche:
And then what kind of inspired you, you played netball, you played tennis. What inspired you to get into wheelchair basketball? Did someone clue you into it? Were you exploring different sports you could play, what kind of got you into the sport to start with?

Sophie Carrigill:
Well, I mean, when I was 16, I was in a pretty horrific car accident. So that obviously changed my life massively, growing from an able-bodied young girl, exploring life and playing all sorts of sports to then my life completely changing. And having to sort of look at life a bit differently and take a different direction. And through my rehab and recovery, sport was always mentioned, but I was just not ready to go back to it, I was not ready rarely to identify with my disability, I think.

Sophie Carrigill:
And that's all just through recovery and getting through that, that first initial few months in that first year, where it's getting your head around, my life has completely changed. It took me a while first to realize that sport was still needed to be such a big part of my life, because I think I was naturally quite good at the academic side of school, I was never amazing, I played myself but it was hard work, wherever sport came more naturally. And I had that natural ability, I suppose.

Sophie Carrigill:
It just sort of came to me that I'd just gone through my recovery, and sort of started adapting, and understanding my disability and realizing that sport was missing. It was my passion, is my passion, I just love any sport, I'm being competitive. It was just that really, that made me think, wow, well, what can I do? And obviously having played netball, mainly all the sports I played with teen sports, and I love being around people. I'm a social butterfly, I suppose, and that sort of we're not having it at the moment, which is a real nightmare for me-

Brian Bosche:
I know.

Sophie Carrigill:
An extrovert like myself, that social interaction I'm craving at. But the team element working together was something that I could transfer easily. The same sort of skills were used. But ultimately the biggest difference was then playing in a chair. Obviously you run quite innately when you play sport as an able-bodied athlete, whereas the actual pushing of the chair is the hard bit. I was getting to grips with shooting, and passing, and catching again, and things like that.

Sophie Carrigill:
But like trying to then dribble and push your chair, maneuver chair as well was just like, wow, I was terrible when I first started. Honestly, I was so bad, but I just kept going and I've got a bit of a determined personality, I suppose. And I just kept turning up and I kept wanting to get better, I think really. And it just kept going on with it.

Brian Bosche:
Was there a league you could join? Was there a local team? How did you actually get access to that?

Sophie Carrigill:
I was super lucky actually that I sort of Googled disability sports near me, and basketball was the main one really that came up. And so I did some research into it, and the club was literally 10 minutes from my house, which isn't always the case. Which is also why the Inspire A Generation program is so important that we can make wheelchair basketball more local to people. And it gives people more opportunity to be able to play, I was really lucky that I had a place down the road for me, and it was the Leeds Spiders, it's where I'm from originally. I've lived there all my life, it was really nice for me to be like-

Brian Bosche:
The Leeds Spiders?

Sophie Carrigill:
Yes.

Brian Bosche:
That's terrifying. My wife and Skylar will just not even look at spiders.

Sophie Carrigill:
But it was quite nice to do something that was almost in the community, and play the Leeds was quite... It was nice for me to do that. But initially I was just playing for fun and to meet people and it was completely recreational. I never really had sights on playing for my country, or anything like that. I just wanted to play and just keep getting better. It all happened quite organically really.

Brian Bosche:
And to run through the basics of wheelchair basketball, because I have a lot of questions here. We went through this with 2K with some others, are there... Let's start with basics before I go into my fun questions of like, is wingspan matter more? What are some of the competitive advantages? I want to figure out how to win in wheelchair basketball, but what are some of the basics for maybe newer fans? What are some of the differences, can you just kind of give a one-on-one real quick?

Sophie Carrigill:
I guess like the biggest rule, I suppose that's different, or it's the same rule but in a chair, is it's two pushes for every dribble. It's like double dribble, I think that's what it's called.

Brian Bosche:
It is bad, but good.

Sophie Carrigill:
You can have two pushes on your wheels before you then have to drip a ball. When you're first starting often, you can put the ball on your lap and do your pushes, but ultimately as you've improved and your skill level develops, you can dribble the ball out in front of you and push alternate hands or things like that. Or you push the ball so far out that you can push onto it sort of thing. I guess other rules on childhood-

Brian Bosche:
Before we get into that, does that mean there are some people like they talk about Yonis or Kevin Durant, like it's two dribbles from baseline to baseline for dunk or something. Are there some athletes that are just incredible, they can cover so much distance and those two pushes?

Sophie Carrigill:
Yeah, absolutely.

Brian Bosche:
And that's a competitive advantage?

Sophie Carrigill:
Oh, wow. If they can have really strong powerful pushes, they can go full court. And it's one of my massive weaknesses, it all depends on your disability as well and how you function and how you move in a chair. But for me, God, I look at people like that that just can push the chair so easily, I'm like, "Oh, that's what I dream of."

Brian Bosche:
Well, it's interesting where you're a 1.0. And then the five people have to add up to, I think, 14 based on the level of your disability, is that right? If I were to play as an abled body person, I would be a certain classification where what does it go up to, four or something?

Sophie Carrigill:
You would be a five, as an able-bodied person, you would be five points. And you can only have one able-bodied person on your team at one time. And that's only in the national leagues, you can't play a Paralympics, or a World Championships, orgreat Britain, because obviously you could play the able bodies game.

Brian Bosche:
Well, absolutely I cannot Sophie, but that's another discussion.

Sophie Carrigill:
But that's how it works. So every disability is worth a certain amount of points, I suppose, based on your function, based on... It's a lot about reaching out of your cylinder, and your rotational movements, and your forwards and backwards movements. Because for my disability, I'm paralyzed from the waist down. I have really limited core function, my upper muscles don't really work, and so leaning outside of my cylinder, I tend to fall over, or I use a lot of strapping to sort of keep me in my chair and then-

Brian Bosche:
And use your arm to stabilize.

Sophie Carrigill:
Give that extra support. That's why I'm less points as someone who's an amputee, who is functioning everywhere else. That muscles are still functioning, and they've not just lost, but they've got a missing limb, and they are obviously a lot more functional than I am. They have a height they're worth higher points. It just means it's fair you wouldn't ever play a team that's full of amputees, so you try it.

Sophie Carrigill:
And that's a big part of the selection process as well as what line that's can we play, because like you said, it's all about making the numbers add up, and that's a real tactical element, I suppose. It doesn't really work the same in the running game, because you don't have that element of having to add up really quickly. You're going to fall on the court. Well, you're still valid.

Brian Bosche:
It's almost like natural role-Players, like in the running game you have someone who might be a little slower but taller. And so role is the post versus a shooter, or someone who's fast. It seems like those natural roles play out in the point system as well.

Sophie Carrigill:
Absolutely, definitely. And you develop your own role as well, because not as one disability, even if it's the same as someone else plays out in the same way. Even if someone had a spinal cord injury like me, they would probably play completely differently, or it would affect them completely differently. So they might be able to do different things a lot better, or I could do different things better or whatever.

Sophie Carrigill:
That really is organic how you sort of develop your role as oppose and it's never limited to what your disability is. I think I'm especially, always trying to push the boundaries of what my body can do because ultimately I want to be the best athlete, not just the best like one pointer, I'm trying to like push my body to make it do things that might not, or shouldn't be able to do. But that's all the work that you do behind the scenes, I suppose.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, definitely.

Skylar Smith:
Definitely. I feel like let's keep it moving because we have so much ground to cover.

Brian Bosche:
Oh, I have so many questions though Sky, I want to know what a charge is.

Skylar Smith:
Do you want to get that lane Brian?

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, let's go one more.

Sophie Carrigill:
[inaudible 00:13:03] yeah, so recharge.

Brian Bosche:
[crosstalk 00:13:04] continue.

Sophie Carrigill:
It's the same sort of thing really, but it's all about where your chair positioning is, and it also depends on who's reffing the game.

Brian Bosche:
Oh, of course, always.

Sophie Carrigill:
Yeah, always, but yeah, our charge really is, if the defender is stationary and if this is the chair, and I'm demonstrating like people can see me, but-

Brian Bosche:
It's a podcasts, that's okay, we'll put this on YouTube too.

Sophie Carrigill:
If they were driving into them wheels, but going straight on us, described this terribly. And that's a charge, if the defender's stationary and you're the one that's moving and you go into them, you can't use the defender to stop yourself. And that's the thing, that's the basic rule. So you have to be in control of your chair, stop yourself before you crash into the defender basically. It's a lot of give and take and it's a lot of some calls you might get, some calls might be completely wayward, but that's part of the game, isn't it? And it's part of-

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, always.

Sophie Carrigill:
You've got to see how the rests are in the first minute of the game really. So keeps it exciting.

Brian Bosche:
Definitely. All right, Skylar, we can move on to some that something else, I can go for an hour.

Skylar Smith:
Well, I feel like we could do a whole pod on the rule, but we want to hear all of it. So we just got to keep it moving. Could you give us like a brief breakdown of just what the wheelchair basketball landscape is like in the UK? You play for GB obviously, is there discipline of the BBL for wheelchair basketball? What's kind of the league situation?

Sophie Carrigill:
There is, it's not quite the equivalent of the BBL, but we're hoping at some stage it will get there. And by that, I mean, it's not professional at the moment. We don't have a professional league that you would be paid to play in. And that would be your training, you train there every week. It's not really like that. As the GB team, we have a centralized program, and that's where we get our training from, we train and we've done that now for God, nearly six or seven years.

Sophie Carrigill:
And that's essential base, we train there every day before COVID anyway. So it was full time, and then your club almost... For the women's team anyway, it was almost secondary to that. Your training would be maybe once a week with your club and the games would be at the weekend, but yeah, we have a national league system, we have a couple of leagues, and a premier league, and division one, division two. It's kind of weird talking about it now, because obviously, with COVID we've not been playing for ages. I've literally not played a game in a year, so I'm going to be so rusty. I don't remember the names of the leagues.

Sophie Carrigill:
But what we also have is, because those would be mixed. So that's the national league and those teams would be mixed men and women. And as a woman, you don't necessarily play the same role in those clubs as you would do within your GB women's team. You don't get as much out of it, I don't think as you would playing against other women.

Sophie Carrigill:
What we're trying to create at the moment, and we're hoping to do this within the next couple of months, and this is the plan for the future, is to really focus on our women's league, which we do have, which is amazing. And it goes from all the way to the elite, the top is the elite to grassroots and people just participating. And it's an amazing couple of weekends a year that we do it, we play, normally we play like four games in a weekend, and it's like hectic and you're just like mad for in and about, but everyone gets together and it's a real like community vibe as well.

Sophie Carrigill:
And we all go out for tea afterwards with your teams. I played for the Angels of the North in that team, in that league, sorry. I think it's really great that we've got that and it's the biggest women's league in the world, it's growing constantly, and [inaudible 00:17:06]. I'd really want to keep developing. But if we were to do something like the BBL in the UK, in the wheelchair games, sorry, the men's team have such good leagues in your Europe, that they all go play in Europe, and they're paid to play.

Sophie Carrigill:
It's all professional, because the basketball culture in places like Spain, and Germany, and Italy is massive anyway. They've sort of piggy backed off that I suppose, and the wheelchair basketball game is massive in those countries, and they have thousands of funds that go watch their games. If we were to try and bring the men's league to the UK, we'd be starting off probably on the back foot, because the clubs in Europe are so way ahead of us, but I was doing something new and bringing a professional women's league to this country, I think would be... It's something really unique, it's something we could really get people behind and celebrate.

Sophie Carrigill:
Women's sports going crazy at the moment, people want to get behind it, people want to see it more. They want to see it in the press, more in the media, they want to be represented. I think it's a movement that's happening at the moment, and I think if we can jump on that almost which I am... The inspired generation program is massive for that, it's let's recruit more people to play, not just women, but anybody to recruit more people just to know about wheelchair basketball as well.

Skylar Smith:
I feel like most things in life, I get more out of it when it's just women. I'm just not getting as much out of that, I [inaudible 00:18:45] on that. And I also want to suggest, we talked about the spiders, [inaudible 00:18:48] coolest names. So do you see the Angels of the North?

Sophie Carrigill:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
Wow.

Skylar Smith:
Spiders is such a nickname?

Sophie Carrigill:
Yeah, it's cool, isn't it? I mean, we are angels.

Skylar Smith:
Could you tell us what a typical day of training is like for you guys?

Sophie Carrigill:
Yeah, for sure. Obviously before COVID, we were a lot more close together and we'd have a lot more training in one day, sort of jam packed all the time. We would sometimes Monday to Friday, like nine to five in our venue training. That would be maybe a shooting session in the morning, a gym session, and then like a team session in the afternoon, awesome thing. So that would be pretty typical.

Sophie Carrigill:
Now what we're doing is, we're obviously trying to avoid as much contact as possible, but at the same time getting as much quality training as we can. We're doing a lot of the similar things, gym sessions, our team sessions we've not really been doing at the moment because we're still working through the stages to be able to get to five V five, or even three V three, doing things as safely as we can, like we're testing twice a week now.

Sophie Carrigill:
Hopefully as the weeks go on, we'll keep incrementally changing that. But we've done a lot of work on our individual skills, which actually had COVID not happened, we wouldn't have had the time to do that, because we'd have been pushing real hard to get loads of team training in and tactics, and running plays and things like that. But actually stepping away for a bit and just only being allowed to do individual things, and has probably really helped us really work on your shooting technique, your mentality, your ball skills, your chair skills.

Sophie Carrigill:
It's almost like take the pressure off a little bit, and allow yourself work on this fundamentals, because ultimately without those fundamentals, you can't be a great basketball player, you've got to work on those. And so it's allowed us a lot of time to do that, which actually we're all looking in great shape and playing really well from what I've seen.

Sophie Carrigill:
And I'm just really excited to get the ball rolling again and start playing some games. And God, I said before, I'm going to be frosty, but it'll come back I'm sure, and the games fitness and stuff will obviously come back, and we're just super excited to start playing together now.

Brian Bosche:
It's so interesting. Well, I mean, most team sport athletes love to play. If there's an option to play five on five or three on three, you would much rather do that, than work individually on your dribbling skills, or your chair styles, or shooting skills. But yeah, so many of the athletes we've spoken with have had to go on that workshop a little bit more and refine their own individual games. I'm interested to see how that affects performance, maybe more time needs to be dedicated to individual work rather than playing, which is frustrating.

Sophie Carrigill:
Well, no, me too. We've never done this before, this wouldn't have been how we would have prepared for a Paralympic games had COVID not being a thing. I'm interested to see, who knows, I might think it's not going to benefit, but actually it could, nobody knows because we've never done that before. Really interesting, and I think just as well in a team sport, if you can make sure your morale is high, and you're having a good time together, I think that's half the battle with winning and being successful. If you've got a good vibe and going into games feeling confident, ultimately that's the me, you having that swag about you, it's super important.

Brian Bosche:
Definitely.

Sophie Carrigill:
That's something that we can take in that doesn't mean we have to spend hours and hours and hours playing games, that's onus on mindset. We're working on stuff like that as well.

Brian Bosche:
You went into the workshop individually, what's your top skill, and then what were you working on? What were you trying to build up over the pandemic?

Sophie Carrigill:
I guess my top to skill, I'm really good at passing. I would happily that, but in my own trumpet, I suppose, are those little dinky passes, no look passes, or like off pass [crosstalk 00:23:19], but I'm still demonstrating, but you know what I mean?

Brian Bosche:
This is so bad, I love it.

Sophie Carrigill:
That's what I like, that makes the crowd go wild, they love it, nice pass and all the assist. But no, that's something that I think I'm quite good at, but in terms of development areas got a good swimming list [inaudible 00:23:41]. Long is how long have you got. For me it's about like I mentioned before, my disability affects me in a certain way that my first couple of pushes are pretty slow just to generate my body moving forwards.

Sophie Carrigill:
Those quick, short, sharp movements have been really important for me to like work on, and things just like ball handling, where we've got some new coaches in the team, and things are changing, always things changing spot. You adapt to how you're playing, and you adapt to the opposition.

Sophie Carrigill:
We're really trying to mix up how we play, and take a lot of accountability for everybody playing and everyone being a scorer, you want threats on the floor no matter what. So that's sort of been something that I've really taken on myself as opposed to develop my ball handling skills, and just catch and shoot ability as well. I'm probably not going to be the person with the ball all the time, so a pass might come to me and that ability to just catch and fire off the shot straight away is really important. Those little things are, I guess, I've been focused on working on.

Brian Bosche:
You're a classic athlete. That's like, Oh, I have to work on everything, I'm not good at anything, love the talk so much.

Sophie Carrigill:
Nothing to be proud, I do know what I'm good at, but it's been really frustrating and lockdown, I think, because my boyfriend's an athlete too, but he's an endurance athlete. He has his bikes setup in the garage, and can literally sit on that for hours and hours and hours. And that is my idea of how I hate that, I can't do that at all.

Brian Bosche:
You need a different mentality.

Sophie Carrigill:
I need stimulation, I need to be making decisions, to be skillfully passing, and whatever. And it's really frustrated me this whole time, because he's like excelling in what he does. And I'm sat there like, you must think I'm such a bad athlete because I get bored so easily. Whereas he's not really seeing me play because we only got together like a year ago. And then the pandemic hit, I was like, "You must just not really rate me," but I was like, "I promise I'm good, I am good, it's just all the skillful things that you don't see yet."

Brian Bosche:
Have you checked out my Wikipedia page? Go refer to that. But let's transition into some of the competitions you've been in, as we've stated, you won bronze, the European Championships, gold at the U25. And as you prepare for Tokyo-

Skylar Smith:
You're not a good athlete, it's like he's going to say-

Brian Bosche:
I know.

Skylar Smith:
We're like listing off all your medals.

Brian Bosche:
Just look at my medals, just get out of here, go in the garage and go pedal.

Skylar Smith:
[inaudible 00:26:19] with your medals.

Sophie Carrigill:
I have them like come up, like, "Babe, do you see this?"

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, exactly.

Skylar Smith:
Have them on at all times.

Brian Bosche:
You are preparing for Tokyo, but let's rewind to 2016 where you got fourth at the 2016 Paralympics in Rio, you got to go to Rio for a Paralympics, that's incredible. What was that experience like? I heard you had a big entourage with you, which sounds incredible.

Sophie Carrigill:
Yeah, it was. Honestly that experience was one of the best experiences of my life. That year had been pretty rough for me, I had to have emergency surgery at the start of the year, so I didn't know if I was going to make it, or I'd get fit enough in time to make the squad. But I did, and that just made me, I think so driven, like those couple women leading into Rio, to [inaudible 00:27:12] from being able to shape I could be.

Sophie Carrigill:
I was just so determined to get there, and then it just made the experience just like, "Oh, I'm here." I grew up as a kid watching the Olympics and thinking, what can I do? What sport could I do that could get me there? And I was never good enough or was willing to, I guess, make those difficult choices at that early age to go and do that, because that's hard work, obviously to be an Olympian Christ.

Sophie Carrigill:
But the silver lining, obviously after my accident happening was that this opportunity arose that I could be a Paralympian. Equally is amazing, but obviously I'd just been given an opportunity later down the line, I was 16 when my accident happened. Literally waking up and seeing the Olympic Park every day from my room, it was a dream come true. And it gives me goosebumps now even thinking about it, because it is the reason why I still do what I do.

Sophie Carrigill:
It's tough, being an athlete, you make a lot of sacrifices and the choices you make along relying on always... I was a student whilst I was training full-time and I didn't have those nights out that all my friends went on, and you make those types of choices-

Brian Bosche:
That Skylar had her Kings-

Sophie Carrigill:
Yeah, exactly.

Brian Bosche:
And the classic nights out.

Skylar Smith:
[inaudible 00:28:30].

Sophie Carrigill:
But I guess, it just all makes it so worthwhile when you have those experiences, and that was even before we started playing, I was just loving it. I had the best time. I think I'd been to watch the London 2012 Paralympics, and I wasn't in the team at the time, but I was in the crowd.

Brian Bosche:
You carried the torch too.

Sophie Carrigill:
I did, yeah, I did.

Brian Bosche:
Amazing.

Sophie Carrigill:
That was incredible. And those little things just really gave me a taste of what it was like to be an elite athlete. Watching the girls play in London, and seeing that crowd just like... It was just electric, and for me, that's like performing on stage, that is like my stage. And I just love it, I just love that atmosphere. I guess that was a real driving force for me, I suppose, to get to Rio and to compete under that type of pressure, it's just what I love to do.

Sophie Carrigill:
It was just an incredible experience, and the games were interest intense as well, because we messed up our first game. We weren't supposed to lose, but we did. And then we were clogging it back, we beat Germany in the pools, which we were the underdogs massively, but we just had nothing to lose and went out there, like with that mindset of just like, "Well, let's just go get them," and made it to the quarters against China, and had a great game.

Sophie Carrigill:
And then the semifinal against USA was insane, and really high scoring for the women's game, really high scoring game. And unfortunately we lost, and then we also lost the bronze metal game against the Dutch, but ultimately at that time it was such a bitter sweet experience because we came fourth, which the team has never done. We've never made it to a semifinal at any sort of world stage at all, Paralympics or World Champs. That was obviously something to celebrate, but then you're the one team that's coming away without a medal, and it's kind of like breaks your heart a bit.

Brian Bosche:
Fourth is tough, even though it's an incredible accomplishment, just like the one missing out, but still amazing.

Sophie Carrigill:
It's tough, but I think that was probably right for where we were at the time. And obviously after Rio, we maintained our funding, which meant that we could keep centralized and keep training hard. And ultimately after that, we just went on some strength to strength, and obviously coming out with a worlds of medal, which is an amazing achievement and something I'm super proud of.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, definitely.

Skylar Smith:
Are there some real wheelchair basketball who are like the countries who kind of come in and dominate year after year. Are there countries are doing that, or is it kind of still pretty equitable?

Sophie Carrigill:
No, there are. Well, I just think there's a lot of countries at the moment who are growing and developing and everyone has, I guess, let peaks and troughs of when they come in and have really great years and things like that, depending on the squad that they've got as well. People retiring maybe, but the Dutch are up there, Germany, Canada, I think USA a good team, and Spain are really up and coming, and really putting in a good fight as well.

Sophie Carrigill:
There's no one really that you can sort of take your foot off the gas and think, oh, this game's easy because even if it was, the minute you do that, you've lost your head and you're not focused on that game. So we just take every game as it's really competitive, and that we've got to pull out our A game to beat this team, because you never know as well when big tournaments come around, people just bring the absolute everything.

Sophie Carrigill:
There are some teams that are consistently at the top, but you just never know, people are always chipping away. And especially now working behind the scenes, we don't know what other teams have been up to, and also they don't know what we've been doing. It'll be exciting even just getting to Tokyo, and seeing what we come up against, because we've not played anyone in a year, and it'll be 18 months by the time we get there.

Brian Bosche:
For Tokyo, what has it been like? You talked about kind of the strange pandemic training. We've talked about this with a lot of athletes, that preparing for these types of competitions is much different. What are some of the things that you think the team can do leading up to Tokyo and fingers crossed that it happens, and that the vaccines roll out, and it can be safe, and that all goes on. What has it been like really preparing for Tokyo, and what do you think you have to do to really present your best team at the event?

Sophie Carrigill:
I mean, number one is obviously safety. Let's make sure that everyone's safe getting out there first, because obviously that is the priority. But I think us as a squad, we've taken it upon ourselves to want to change the way we play and make I guess, our place so much more dynamic and versatile that you're not relying on a couple of players to win your games.

Sophie Carrigill:
Everyone individually has taken on that responsibility, and I think that will put us in a really good position going into any tournament that people have got that responsibility now that it's not just on one score or two scores, it's on everyone. And I think that just developed the women's game so much as well, when you can move the ball so well, and everyone's a threat. It then makes the opposition react differently.

Sophie Carrigill:
If you knock a couple of shots down, the defense is got a jump to you, and it creates other opportunities. I think that's what we've taken on. What else? I think just working on the things that we've been able to work on, just focusing on what we can do rather than... I've been guilty of it, I've gone into training and gone, "Oh, God, I just really want to play a game, or I really want to play three V three, I've been really frustrated."

Sophie Carrigill:
But actually, if you just switch your mindset and focus on like the skills that you can be developing and the things that you can be working on, that's been something that I think we've all done really well, obviously we do some grumbles because we want to play. And that's something I've struggled with, but it's important to take what we can, and I suppose take the positives.

Sophie Carrigill:
And we've done a lot of work on our team dynamics, team confidence, things like that. How do we start games, having those conversations is again, just something that we can work on over Zoom thankfully. Keeping the team relationship strong as well is something we've been trying to do.

Skylar Smith:
Switching gears a little bit, can you talk a little bit about the Inspire A Generation Program, and what do you think it'll mean to the wheelchair basketball community as a whole?

Sophie Carrigill:
The Inspire A Generation program has been launched by British Wheelchair Basketball to obviously try and increase the participation of people playing, because currently there's not that many clubs, there's not that many places where you can go and readily rent a chair or sit in a chair and try the sport.

Sophie Carrigill:
I think to make that more accessible, more inclusive is just a really important thing to try and get more people to want to play, and to see wheelchair basketball, and to know about it, and to spread the word almost, to spread that message of, "Oh, there's this really cool sport that everyone loves when they watch it, but they just don't know where to go and play it." We're trying to recruit activators who can help with this process in their local community. And they'll be given a really intensive training program to almost facilitate the delivery of wheelchair basketball in that community.

Sophie Carrigill:
It's for anyone really who wants to get involved, which is why wheelchair basketball is such a great sport is totally inclusive, even if you are non-disabled you can play in your national league. And I think the beauty of that is, I think when I was growing up I loved doing things with my friends, playing sport with my friends. And that shouldn't matter whether you've got a disability or not, you should be able to do something that is completely inclusive for everyone. If you've got a friend with a disability, you can also go play that sport with them.

Skylar Smith:
Definitely.

Sophie Carrigill:
That's something that I think we can absolutely celebrate, and get that message out there completely. And I think how it will help with the sport in general, is just increasing participation means. More people [inaudible 00:37:13] more about the sports and develops more fans, which I'm all about more fans, more fans of wheelchair basketball. And then ultimately, not everybody wants to go on to be a Paralympian or to aspire to be an elite athlete. I think disabled people just being active is really important, and giving them an opportunity to do that is one of the main sort of driving forces behind the Inspired Generation Program.

Sophie Carrigill:
But ultimately some of those people might want to progress, and might want to make it into the GB Academy, or into the GB senior team at some point. And ultimately I want more people competing for my spot, because that makes me a better athlete, that makes me push myself harder. If there's more young girls, especially as I'm getting old a bit as the gears go by.

Brian Bosche:
Oh, Sophie come on.

Sophie Carrigill:
Why not? But in terms of being an athlete-

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, that's true.

Sophie Carrigill:
Your career doesn't last forever.

Brian Bosche:
I mean, Serina is almost 40, right?

Sophie Carrigill:
I know.

Brian Bosche:
It's been so extended now.

Sophie Carrigill:
She's a dream. But that would be the goal, the goal would be to carry on, but I want people making me work harder, coming up from my spot. I think that also will help the Inspire A Generation program or probably feed into our program at GB as well.

Skylar Smith:
That makes sense. In your ideal world, what does the wheelchair basketball community look like? I mean, I think you just kind of touched on some areas for improvement. Brian just focused on how basketball can be grown in the UK. What's kind of like... You're in a perfect utopia we've gotten as far as we can with wheelchair basketball. What does the community look like?

Sophie Carrigill:
Oh, I think it's just like inclusion is really important to me. It's giving everyone an opportunity to play if they want to play. That would be number one, it's that it's in every leisure center across the country that people have access to it, regardless of ability and income, regardless of that, that they can play the sport.

Sophie Carrigill:
I guess then all the things would be that we had professional league, that we had sponsorship, that we had fans that came to our games, that it was like the BBL. That you had a massive fan set at the start and you all got introduced coming out, and that you were almost like local celebrities. And that is the case with a lot of athletes, that they are, they're recognized for the amazing things that they do.

Sophie Carrigill:
And I think we are to a certain extent within our community, but not on the broader scale. I think that recognition potentially would be something that I'd love to see. And more fans at the games would be great, because that, God, for me playing in front of fans is awesome. I love it. I would love to see more people at our games. And then on the wider scale is continuous, and I think consistent success on the world stage would be something that I'd love to have for us as a GB team.

Skylar Smith:
That does sound like a beautiful ideal world.

Sophie Carrigill:
Yeah, that'd be perfect, right?

Skylar Smith:
Yeah. If only you can just snap our fingers and make all that-

Sophie Carrigill:
I know.

Skylar Smith:
What's something you wish casual sports fans understood about wheelchair basketball. So this could either be maybe there's a misconception that people constantly think and you want to debunk it. Maybe there's just something that literally none of us know that you wish we knew, [crosstalk 00:40:57] just spread it to the entire casual sports fan audience. What would you [inaudible 00:41:03] to know.

Sophie Carrigill:
God, that's a really good question. I think that the biggest thing, maybe it's a misconception, I'm not sure, but they think it's almost a lesser version of the running game. And that they see the chair maybe as something that slows you down, and it makes it more... Really, the chair is just a piece of equipment, just like a football is, just like the ball is, just like golf club.

Skylar Smith:
Rackets, golf club.

Sophie Carrigill:
Exactly. It is our piece of equipment. And I think that would be what I wish people saw. But that's a massive societal problem that people... I saw a thing the other day on Instagram, actually about chairs with wheels. The office chair, everyone thinks that's amazing because you can fly around your office on wheels and it's great. Whereas then they see a wheelchair and it's like, "Oh, that's sad." And "Oh, I'm sorry for that, for you."

Sophie Carrigill:
It goes deeper than just sports fans, but if we start to publicize wheelchair basketball in that way, and show people that it is just your piece of equipment that you use to play your sport, then ultimately... And this has happened, people come watch a minute of the sport and then they're just like watching sport. It's not like, "Oh, I'm watching a person in a wheelchair play sport." It just takes that initial like, "Come watch, come see it for yourself." And then you'll be a lifelong fan hopefully. That would probably be my thing.

Brian Bosche:
Or like you said, just the inclusion if you want to play with your friends, just for casual fans. If you go to a leisure center, and there's a lot of issues of just making it, like you said, more affordable to get into courts to have court time. I know that's been a big problem across the UK of just getting affordable court time, and not paying fucking 50 pounds for an hour, which is same to us in the US.

Brian Bosche:
But just being able to play with your friends and having the equipment available if you want to try it out, and then once you try it out like, "Wow, this is the sport, I can follow it. There's different mechanics to it that are interesting." I think that can be so powerful. To wrap this up, if someone's never gotten into wheelchair basketball before, and they're wanting to, where's the best place to start? You mentioned Inspire A Generation and having different advocates in the community, where can people start to learn more and to get more involved?

Sophie Carrigill:
Absolutely, that would be the first place inspireageneration.com. It's the website, but also if you want to just look at, you can follow people on Instagram, follow the British Wheelchair Basketball team, follow individual athletes. I guess, make your feed more inclusive, and varied so that you're seeing different people, you're seeing different athletes, and different bodies, and what they look like. Just to, I guess, experience what we're like.

Sophie Carrigill:
But I would definitely recommend going on watching some footage maybe, we're all on YouTube. We've got loads of footage on YouTube, so watching some games, and just immerse yourself in it. But if you want to just come and play like there's clubs all across the country, which are still running, who are still doing... It's a lot of online stuff at the moment, but still doing virtual sessions with a lot of the clubs. You can go on the British Wheelchair Basketball website as well, and find your nearest club.

Brian Bosche:
Oh, that's great.

Sophie Carrigill:
Just honestly, it was the best thing that I ever did joining this sport, and it's changed my life completely. And I can't look back, I have absolutely no regrets, I love it. It's such a great community, and it's so fun to be a part of. I would 100% recommend getting involved.

Brian Bosche:
And then where can people find you? Instagram, Twitter?

Sophie Carrigill:
Oh, yeah, I'm on all the platforms. I'm @sophcaz on the whole shebang.

Brian Bosche:
Love it.

Sophie Carrigill:
Instagram, Twitter, TikTok.

Brian Bosche:
Are you on TikTok yet?

Sophie Carrigill:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
Yes, TikTok. Let's go Sophie.

Sophie Carrigill:
If you're interested in some cool wheelchair dance moves, then have a look at my TikTok.

Brian Bosche:
I love that.

Sophie Carrigill:
I try my best.

Brian Bosche:
That's great to hear. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This was incredible.

Sophie Carrigill:
Thank you.

Brian Bosche:
And best of luck as you train for Tokyo.

Sophie Carrigill:
Thank you so much. It's been really nice to talk to you.