Tea Time with Josh Bett: The London Lions Playing in the Basketball Champions League

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Brian chats with Josh Bett, Commentator for the Basketball Champions League, in this episode of Tea Time. They discuss the London Lions building a team to play in Europe, their heartbreaking loss to Neptunas in the Basketball Champions League qualifier, next steps in the FIBA Europe Cup, and how not having fans will affect the BBL.

Full Transcript

Brian Bosche:
Hey everyone, welcome back to the High Tea Hoops Podcast. This is Brian Bosche at the Duke of Hoops and today we have a very special guest, Josh Bett, international basketball commenter. What's up, Josh? Thanks for joining.

Josh Bett:
Thanks Brian. Thanks for having me on. Great to finally meet you as well. Been seeing you all over social media.

Brian Bosche:
Yes. Yeah. We finally get to see each other's faces instead of just our Twitter avatars over and over again.

Josh Bett:
[inaudible 00:00:30]

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. To start off with, let's introduce the audience to you a little bit. So, give us a little bit of your background, what you do. Would love to hear from you.

Josh Bett:
My day job right now, I work as a PE teacher at a international ... It's an American international school in Oxbridge. It's called ACS. I was a student at the American School of England and the reason being that was because after my dad was sort of at the end of his coaching career in the British Basketball League, he was a math teacher, while my mother was a history teacher at the American school. So I grew up around Americans, Americans and international students. That was my upbringing, but my father was a very, very ... He was a decent basketball player in the British Basketball League. He played alongside greats such as Alton Byrd, Paul Stimson for Crystal Palace. He'd also played for Hemel Royals which is now the London Lions of course. Then he became a prominent coach for the Thames Valley Tigers in the '90s.

Josh Bett:
So my upbringing from a very young age was always basketball. That's all I knew as a kid, because from the age of five is when I probably start following my dad's Thames Valley Tigers and then he was an assistant coach for two years at London Towers and then finishes coaching career again at the Tigers from 2002 to 2005.

Brian Bosche:
That's a long basketball career there that you followed along with as a kid. You're like a Steph Curry baby for the BBL.

Josh Bett:
Minus the jump shot. There's still-

Brian Bosche:
Minus the greatest shooter of all time. So what do you do now in basketball?

Josh Bett:
I went to University of Worcester and I went there because it was becoming at that time in 2000 ... Well, I went to the United States. I played Division 3 basketball at Mount [inaudible 00:02:12] College and then subbed at main community college for a year. Richie McNutt, the assistant coach at Cheshire Phoenix, he was my teammate there for a year. I left Pennsylvania because I was not getting enough playing time. Kevin Durant's older cousin was my teammate. A guy named Dan Conway, and I was going to struggle to get into that team. So I went to Maine. I played. I started there, but I ripped my acetabulum in my hip and decided that I just couldn't cope with the training, the intensity even at that level in the States.

Josh Bett:
So I came back to Worcester, kind of reinjured myself but I more or less just ... I stayed in as ... just really became the basketball fan at that point, less trying to be a player. After Worcester I wasn't really involved in any basketball for about two, three years and then come 2016 I get an email from a guy called Paul Simpson asking me if I was available to try and be a commentator for the Basketball Champions League, and that's been my involvement for basketball ever since.

Brian Bosche:
Nice. And we have a listener question from Coach Hugh, former guest. "How many languages can you confidently commentate in?"

Josh Bett:
Well I struggle to get by with English, but-

Brian Bosche:
Most do.

Josh Bett:
I think if I had to commentate in another language, it wouldn't be perfect but it'd probably be Italian or Spanish. I think the thing with Hugh is he sees me post a lot of things. I've got friends all over the world and that's not even through basketball. That's just friends from school. I remember being as young as nine years old in grade three at TASIS and at one point grade three was split into three classes. You had an American class, you had [inaudible 00:03:45] international classes, and I was put in the international class. I remember at one point I think I was one of only three students that spoken English, so growing up in that environment, you pick up things like phrases and words in Japanese and Arabic and Hebrew and Mandarin.

Josh Bett:
So I've always just been ... It's not something ... Though I do flaunt it a lot on Twitter with all these different language videos I do, it's really just my upbringing being around so many different friends and understanding different phrases. If I had to pick another language that I could converse in very well, it'd probably be my wife's language, Vietnamese.

Brian Bosche:
Is there a good Vietnamese basketball community?

Josh Bett:
You know, it surprises me [crosstalk 00:04:23]-

Brian Bosche:
Southeast Asia is pretty strong in basketball. That's a big sport, yeah.

Josh Bett:
I first met my wife in Worcester in 2013 and when we were about to graduate, she had to go back to Vietnam and we were trying to figure out, do we stay? Do we leave? So I looked in Vietnam and I noticed there was a team called Saigon Heat. So I tried to contact them to say, "Do you need any youth coaches? I've got a degree in this." And they said they didn't want me to coach for them. They sent a very blunt email like, "No, we don't need you." So then two years later I got a job at the American school I used to be a student at. Saigon Heat's coach at that point, the new coach, was one of my dad's closest friends, Tony Garbelotto, a British coach. So I contacted Tony and said, "Oh, you're at Saigon Heat. I contacted them about coaching for them years ago." And he said, "Oh, you should have told me that. I had loads of workers, so it's too late now, of course."

Josh Bett:
In Vietnam it's getting better in terms of the business side, but I think for them to compete at the national level it's going to take some time of course because around that area in Southeast Asia, you've got the Philippines which is a powerhouse [crosstalk 00:05:24]-

Brian Bosche:
Yep, national sport. National sport of the Philippines.

Josh Bett:
It's like a national obsession of course.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah.

Josh Bett:
The product side of the professional game in Vietnam is getting bigger. They're selling out. They use the Canadian International School that sits 34,000 people for the Saigon Heat games and I think it's the Asian Games, they call it, where they play big club leagues from teams from other Asian countries.

Brian Bosche:
Well with all of the different languages you speak, even if it's just for fun, if you add in a phrase here or there, that certainly helps with the Basketball Champions League with so many teams from so many different countries playing, where in my American-centric view with the NBA, there's only English and American English that I can't even imagine, so it seems like a huge strength, which brings us into this year's Basketball Champions League. So for the audience that may not know that much about the Champions League, do you just want to give kind of a quick context of what is the Basketball Champions League?

Josh Bett:
So the Basketball Champions League came in, it was introduced in ... The first season was 2016-17, and it's a great chance for teams in their domestic leagues to sort of ... a competition to aspire to. Now, most countries will get a certain amount of teams in the competition whereas teams such as the United Kingdom, the London Lions were champions pre-COVID if you think about 2019, so they were able to give themselves a target to get into the qualifiers, which we saw recently against Neptunas.

Josh Bett:
It's a great league. It's a very, very competitive league. There's no storyline as to who's going to be the favorites to win it. The first season I got involved, there were a bunch of teams I thought could have won it, but the team that ended up winning it was Iberostar Tenerife. In the second season it was like ... And I was very good friends with ... I'm very good friends with the former [inaudible 00:07:10] captain [inaudible 00:07:10] and we spoke a lot during that season and at times they were pulling victories right at the last second and they ended up hosting the tournament and won it.

Josh Bett:
It's in its fifth season right now. It's a good chance for teams to see the different teams we have all over Europe as well and see the competition that's out there, and it's been going strong ever since. Judging by the new teams we've got this season, it looks like it's just getting better and better.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, that's great to hear. And so over the last few seasons, what has prevented a lot of the BBL teams from entering? Is there a cost? What are some of the barriers for a BBL team to actually get into it?

Josh Bett:
I don't think there's cost. There's always an opportunity. It's down to the clubs who are able to be in it at the end of the day. Leicester Riders, they won the league ... They were eligible in the 2018-19 regular season, and I thought they were a very, very good team the year before. Leicester's always been a strong basketball organization. They're very well run, very well coached, great fan base, good players, but they just saw how tough it was. They were into the FIBA Europe Cup. But it's very harsh of anybody to criticize how they did. That was a great chance for a British team just to see what the level was hoping that the year after, that either they or whoever won the league at that point would go back into it. And that's what we've recently seen with the London Lions.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, I mean it was the support of seeing the London Lions enter the Basketball Champions League and building up that squad has been pretty amazing for me to see, kind of entering the British basketball community more recently. So what have you seen from kind of the support across the UK, all of the social media love? They actually got a live coverage on BBC Sports, so what's been your reaction to kind of seeing this love and the support for the Lions as they enter the Champions League?

Josh Bett:
Well I think the only people I've ever spoken to, that I personally know, have always been very supportive. I'm in a few WhatsApp groups with some of the Lions players. Obviously my friends I do my Below the Rim Podcast with, and I think everybody to the good of British basketball wanted the club to do well. I mean, that was no surprise to me. I've never come across anything other than positivity and sort of people paying a lot of homage to the London Lions in the hope that they would do well.

Josh Bett:
I think also it was great as well, because we spoke about this in our Below the Rim Podcast. What Vince Macaulay was able to do was finally to get some fresh ownership in the club and took a fresh injection of cash to sign some good players. The idea of signing a player like DeAndre Liggins and Kevin Ware five years ago, if you said that to me, I probably would have laughed at you because I would have thought the state of the British Basketball League, it was in a sort of a disarray, sort of a float, if you'd like.

Josh Bett:
So, the fact that he was able to do that and get these signings in sort of gave a lot of us who were around during the '90s to see what a great league the British Basketball League was, a bit of hope to say, "Well, you know what? Things could be on the change now, things could be getting better." And even this off season was possibly the ... Even though it was during the pandemic, was the busiest off season that I've ever seen of a British Basketball League season, probably even the busiest ever.

Josh Bett:
So it's no surprise. I think those who really love British basketball want to see the game go further. They're the ones that showed their loyal support, and I think that was the majority.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, that's been really fun to see where 777 Partners, the Triple 7 Partners, came in and acquired the London Lions and injected kind of that new capital, made this push. Seems like they're pretty bullish on football and basketball being the top two sports in the world, the sports of the future because they're so accessible and so easy to play. You need a goal and a ball, a hoop and a ball, and I think we're seeing that every country is going to have a top league, and there's going to be opportunities for those leagues and teams to be financially successful.

Brian Bosche:
UK's obviously one of the biggest sports markets and it still shocks me as an American coming in how little interest there is in basketball, how small it is compared to some other sports, and I'm pretty excited to see that investment coming in, but there are also some reactions to all these huge signings, that they were building a super team. Is it good or bad for the BBL? What are some of your thoughts on kind of this argument that I saw of, "All right, if they just build this super team of ex-NBA players and blow out every other BBL team, that's not good for the league overall. So I tend to think rising tide raises all boats, like the more interest in it, the more coverage we're going to get, the more people are going to look at the BBL and they will be competitive, but what were some of your thoughts on that argument that I saw kind of raging over Twitter?

Josh Bett:
I actually need to see the argument. I've not seen the argument. I think it's a good thing I didn't see the argument because I probably would have chipped in. Look, the fact is-

Brian Bosche:
You can chip in now.

Josh Bett:
I am a very spoiled British basketball fan in the sense I remember going to practices and seeing the great Steve Bucknall, my godfather, Pete Scantlebury. Roger Huggins, of course, one of the best British basketball players to come out of London, and seeing great quality. In 1997-98 I remember seeing John Amaechi who was a ... In the Cavs ... Yeah, he was with the Cavaliers, but in the Utah Jazz rotation in 2002, so I'm very much used to seeing top players come into the British Basketball League. I lost it now but I had the 1999 championship winning jersey of the London Towers player Dwayne Morton who played with Latrell Sprewell and was at that practice when he punched his coach.

Josh Bett:
So the fact is all these years from 2005, I would say, til about the last two, three years, the BBL really did lose its identity and it was tough, but those of us around still loved it, and like I said, for Vince to do what he did and to get the fresh cash coming in, to get these players coming in, for anybody to criticize that, I mean, come on, man. You've got to see beyond if you're a fan of a club or whatever and you think it's unfair because there's a powerhouse building, no, that's what the game needs. Like you just said, the game needs big names. The game needs players that are going to attract fans to come in so that TV deals can come in the future.

Josh Bett:
I hope you show me the argument because ... I hope it's not too late, I will definitely chip in for that one.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, definitely. I can send you some thread too. I was like, "All right, if the Warriors are amazing, if you see these superstar teams, the NBA got the most coverage with LeBron went to Miami with that super team. Even when they're ripping off 20 plus point wins, people want to see those star teams competing, and then every team brings it when they go and play that team. We can talk about the BBL season moving forward later, but I'm excited for every other BBL team to look at that London Lions team and bring it and the competitiveness to go up and wanting to compete against it, so yeah, I'm excited for it and I'm excited to see it.

Brian Bosche:
But, let's move on here to the actual qualifier that the London Lions just participated in. Really fun to watch. We had BBL Twitter going where everyone was kind of pitching in their commentary and following along and everything. To set a little context in heartbreaking fashion, they did, the London Lions did fall short against Neptunas, the Lithuanian club. It was a really close game, really competitive game, a little rusty on both sides from what it looked like, which is very fair. It was covered live on BBC Sports which is amazing to see. It came down to the final possessions, but they did lose 77-73. So, what were your initial reactions from this game, Josh?

Josh Bett:
I remember when the draw came out. So, speaking with friends in sort of the media side of things that were involved, we were talking about possible opponents for the London Lions. Also a big [inaudible 00:14:32] Tel Aviv as well because we've got friends who work in their club. So when I saw they had Neptunas Klaipeda I actually was a bit at first like, "Oh wow," because for four straight Neptunas Klaipeda has been in the Basketball Champions League. The first two years they finished second and fourth in their group. Last two years were a bit of a rock stumble, but I was very surprised to see them to be in the qualifiers. Now that's because there's been a new edition of Rytas Vilniaus who's a powerhouse as well in the Lithuanian Basketball League.

Josh Bett:
Now, when I thought about it and as time drew close to the game, I noticed that Neptunas Klaipeda ... I was told by various sources that they weren't going to have Americans at the game. Okay, well they also lost a few of their top Lithuanian players as well, but it was always in the back of my mind, "Look, it doesn't matter what team, what players go out there. For anybody to be worthy enough to wear the jersey of Neptunas Klaipeda, you're talking about a top four team in the LKL, I believe it's referred to in Lithuania." And I think with the signings that the Lions made, I definitely knew that from one player I knew that used to play for the Neptunas, he told me that the Neptunas players were definitely not taking the London Lions for granted, because they knew with players like DeAndre Liggins, Kevin Ware, not to mention Byron [crosstalk 00:15:43] they knew it was going to be a tough ride for them.

Josh Bett:
And I can tell you one thing. Have you ever seen the other Dream Team documentary?

Brian Bosche:
The other Dream Team documentary? No.

Josh Bett:
No. So that's based on the Lithuanian players that represented the Soviet Union in the 1988 Olympics in which it's fair to say that some of the best players ... probably arguably the best players on that team were Lithuanian. So there's a debate today, was the 1988 Olympics won by the Soviet Union? Was it won by the Lithuanians? But fast forward four years later in 1992, Lithuania won the bronze medal in the bronze medal game against Russia. So we know there's a lot of history in terms of the fabric and fiber of basketball in Lithuania and I think it would have been very tough for those players in Neptunas Klaipeda to go back to Lithuania having known they lost to a London Lions team in a country where basketball is not that popular, because in Lithuania, basketball's a national obsession. So going on to the game, I felt that would be players that the Lions had brought in, the players that they'd kept, they kept Justin Robinson, they kept Ed Lucas.

Josh Bett:
I knew for them, the key for them was going to be transition, using the sort of speed that they had, the fast break power that they had as well, that they could hang. And they did. They caused Neptunas quite a few problems.

Brian Bosche:
Kevin Ware was incredible.

Josh Bett:
Oh, unbelievable.

Brian Bosche:
He just flew up and down the court. He looked like he was in another league of athleticism than everyone else out there.

Josh Bett:
Absolutely, definitely right. The tempo was what he's used to playing of course, but I mean before he had the injury, you saw what he was like at Louisville, but one thing I was skeptical at first was the 2-3 zone and I think it was either ... I can't remember, early in the game, but as you were because Neptunas Klaipeda won't shoot the ball with any confidence from the perimeter. The problem was after Matthew Bryan came in the game, now shout out to Matthew Bryan, he's a good friend of mine, he got them into the penalty, I think, at eight minutes to go, but the London Lions stayed in that 2-3 zone and that was the point when Neptunas Klaipeda started to hit shots.

Brian Bosche:
They were wide open.

Josh Bett:
So [crosstalk 00:17:35] wide open, yeah.

Brian Bosche:
I mean, those threes were just over and over. They missed a ton of them early on, so they could have gone up quick but they were wide open in that zone defense.

Josh Bett:
And it was tough as well because Neptunas, the way they were passing the ball around the zone, you could see the Lions' top two defenders really over-committing it. It was a tough situation. You could argue, could have they gone to man, could have been a different story. We'll never know, but going onto that final possession, I figured in the back, and I know full well that they were going to go for the win, so if it was me personally I would have gone [inaudible 00:18:04] with Byron Mullens and JR with two shooters wide and then if you have to, you can dish off to Matthew Bryan. It didn't work obviously, so they went down to Matthew Bryan, and fair credit to him, he got it in the lane, he got the contact, nothing was called obviously and that's just the way it ended. But I strongly feel if those two teams played again, it would have been a different outcome.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. Before we hop into the last possession and the refereeing and the coaching there, the zone defense I thought brought out one of the key themes that I saw from the game, which is ... Actually did you play 2-3 zone in college? Did you play 2-3 zone at any level?

Josh Bett:
Oh we mixed it up. 2-3, 1-3-1, it depended. The first college coach I had was ... You can speak to Rich McNutt at Cheshire Phoenix but we used to play 2-3 zones to stop teams from taking three pointers which blew my mind, but at my second college we used to play a ... We used to get into a 3-2 zone to actually stop people from taking perimeter shots which makes sense because you got through on the outside. The problem is that would kill us against bigger players. I always felt that 1-3-1 was the best zone to play but to be honest it really depends who you're playing. I would never play zone against a shooting team, that's for sure.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, in high school we did 2-3 zone for the most part and then in college we did ... We would do a 2-2-1 back to 2-3, so we'd do full court zone, press and then back to half court sets. It took us forever to figure out how to play effective 2-3 zone. It requires you to gel with your teammates to understand where they're going to be. Communicate extremely effectively. It took half the season to really ramp up on the 2-3 zone. You see that at Syracuse which they're famous for, their 2-3 zone, and it just ... You're right, they struggled in the 2-3 zone. They over-committed. They weren't helping as much, and I think that's just the general theme of they have not played much together.

Brian Bosche:
They looked to me kind of like a pickup team. You could tell they were clearly more athletic, but like you said, Neptunas has had Basketball Champions League success. They are a storied program. This is a team that was thrown together. They got a couple warmup games, a couple exhibition games, a few practices over the last couple months, but they had no time to really prep and come together as a team, and I think that hurt them. They didn't look like a team, they looked at a pickup team more that was much more athletic. But what are your thoughts on ... I feel like if they played in two months when the Lions can get a little bit more time together, they would have had a much better shot and I think it was just unfortunate timing.

Josh Bett:
Oh, absolutely. You look at that team, that team is a European competitor. Byron Mullens-

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, the passes were amazing.

Josh Bett:
Oh, of course, yeah. But a lot of people ... I spoke to some people and some people said they were disappointed with Byron Mullens, and I was a bit [crosstalk 00:20:46]-

Brian Bosche:
I think it was just the effort.

Josh Bett:
I think he was tough as nails and I think when you have a big man, whatever he is, 6'11", 7 foot, that can pop out and shoot three pointers, he was playing that [inaudible 00:20:55] last year. Okay, his numbers were a bit different but he was only there for a short while, but he was playing in the B league before that and he's a tough, tough player. He was a backup center in the NBA and I feel like, again, if those two teams played a week later, the outcome would have been different because the physicality, the sort of hunger and desire, what you saw from the Lions players through stretches of that game, I'm telling you, Neptunas would have a tougher game if it went to a second one.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, I think some of the criticism we saw from Mullens was just effort based. He was so effective. He was really effective in the exhibition games before he got ejected, but he came out on fire in one of them and then got thrown out almost immediately, and I think in this one he looked so locked in. It looks like him and Justin Robinson could have that great two-man game off of the screen and roll, the pick and pop, but for Mullens, at points he had some really bad turnovers. You could see him kind of jogging up and down the court, and those moments just stick in your mind more than the ones where he's actually playing effective, even when he's dropping dimes in the post and you can see how talented of a player he is. It's just the effort just seemed ... What do you think, were they out of shape? Is it just exhausting? I know they only got there a day before or something.

Josh Bett:
I'll compare this to the bubble. Take game seven between the Jazz and the Nuggets, and I'll even go game seven between the Rockets and the Suns. The Suns are looked at absolutely aghast in game seven. The Nuggets ... Donovan Mitchell looked absolutely aghast. So we were asking ... and this is why I support those [inaudible 00:22:30] because the criticism he was getting, you're asking a professional who's been out for five months due to a pandemic and you can say, "Oh, they're athletes. They should still be in shape." They've got to be in basketball shape. That's different.

Brian Bosche:
That's way different.

Josh Bett:
When you're used to doing something every day and taking the time off and [inaudible 00:22:47] get straight back in it with one game to play, that's not easy, and I'm telling you, the skill side, seeing his skill side of things, if they all stay together, that team's going to be terrifying to play against. So I'm a big supporter. I think Byron Mullens gave them a little bit of time to sort of get into basketball shape. He is going to be one tough player to defend.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, I agree. We saw this in the NBA playing definitely in the bubble's first games before the actual playing games started. It was sloppy. Everyone was missing shots. They looked out of sync. It was not great basketball, and that's comparable to this. These teams have not had a lot of opportunities to play, and you're right, a lot of them can't even train. They can't do full court. They can't do scrimmages. They can't prep like that. I am personally, I don't know about you, I'm terrified to get back on the basketball court on five on five again whenever the lockdown lifts because I don't even want to know what type of basketball shape I'm in right now. But you're right, it's totally different when you're [crosstalk 00:23:39] ... It's going to be scary.

Brian Bosche:
All right, so who was one of your favorite players that really stood out to you on the Lions? Who are you excited about? Who impressed you in that appearance?

Josh Bett:
That's tough. That's very tough.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, there were some good contributors.

Josh Bett:
Look, I could say to you ... I could go with Kevin Ware, I could with Liggins, I could go with Mullens just because the kind of players they are. I've got to give a shout out to Justin Robinson for being the general out there with his vision and getting things going. He had 10 points in the first half. He was coming so confidently off those pick and rolls and pulling up. I know JR played for my dad in 2005 [crosstalk 00:24:14] fantastic player. Shout out to Ed Lucas as well, came off the bench, gave some good minutes, but I've really got to give a shout out ... I've got to give a lot of credit to my guy, Matthew Bryan-Amaning, because-

Brian Bosche:
Incredible.

Josh Bett:
Yeah, coming off with his double-double, 16 and nine rebounds, but he was the reason they got into the penalty early. I always say when I'm calling games in the Champions League, if it's a close game and you get in the penalty first, then the fourth quarter of the game is yours. Obviously it didn't happen in this case, but the fact is, he used his post ... Not so much the back down finesse but just sort of the idea of knowing where to be and drawing that contact, and I thought he was unbelievable in the latter stage of the game, of course. I think he knew what was going on, he knew exactly what his role was, and it's unfortunate that he didn't get the call at the end but I've got to give him the shout out for this one even though he is a friend of mine.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. He was incredible to watch. You're right, they got in the penalty early but they didn't make their free throws. Man, that was tough. If they just hit a few more, that's a different game. But yeah, I loved watching him, and that's where I think Mullens and NBA, they have a nice little two-man post game together. When Mullens kind of took it out in the mid post, high post, they collapsed on him. He dropped it down for that reverse dunk from NBA. That was really fun to see. So I'm excited there. I want to give a shout out to that Dirk Williams corner three.

Josh Bett:
Oh, tough, yeah, tough [crosstalk 00:25:31]-

Brian Bosche:
That clutch was really fun.

Josh Bett:
He was good for the Sheffield Sharks [crosstalk 00:25:36] seasons ago. He's a good scorer but you talked about that relationship with Mullens NBA. You do have that combo in the British Basketball League. Again that's a [inaudible 00:25:45] because even if you play a zone against those two teams, you could put either of them at the high post and one at the low post, but one thing Matthew Bryan doesn't get enough credit for, obviously now being ... I think he's about 30, 31, 32, obviously with his size and strength being 6'10", whatever he is [inaudible 00:26:00] he's a big man who can pass the ball and he has very, very good vision, and when you've got a player like Byron Mullens to play with and the perimeter players, he will be a very good addition to the London Lions.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, all the pieces seem there. It seems like they built this team. Justin Robinson looks like a great point guard leader. Love to see him kind of continue in that Lions tradition. You have the wings, DeAndre Liggins, Kevin Ware, Dirk Williams even, who, let's see if they can continue to shoot well, but they have the athleticism, they have the great transition game, and then you've got a few great bigs. It seems like it fits together. It just didn't feel like they were quite ready.

Brian Bosche:
I see that in the NBA where you see the Heat coming together as the team. You see the Nuggets coming together as a team, where they're not the stars. They're not LeBron, they're not AD, but they're beating those teams because of that teamwork. I'm excited to see if they can meld and kind of come together as players.

Brian Bosche:
Also on this topic, do you want to talk about Neptunas at all? Because I was impressed with their strength. I just felt like they were a strong team. They missed a ton of threes, kept sticking with their game plan. Fundamentally sound. Their passing was incredible. They did not give up. So I want to give some credit to Neptunas. Do you have any shout outs on the Neptunas side? I know almost nothing about them but I was impressed with what I saw.

Josh Bett:
I've got to give a shout out to my guy that didn't suit up and that's Simonas Galdikas. Galdikas, I think he was injured in this game, but I've got to give him a shout out. He's a Facebook friend of mine. He's been a top player for Neptunas Klaipeda for the last two seasons. You could expect that from any Neptunas Klaipeda team, of course. A lot of those players have been playing sort of that level of basketball not only in the Champions League but also their domestic league for so many years, and I think for them, that competition is the norm. They rode the storm in the fourth quarter when the Lions pushed the momentum, but the zone for them worked very well. So, credit for them.

Josh Bett:
But you wouldn't expect anything else from a team from Lithuania because, again, in this country it's all about cricket and soccer and ... not American football, and the rugby, whereas in Lithuania there's only one thing that matters over there and that's basketball. Nothing else matters. And you know what? Those players, had they lost that game, it would have been very difficult for them to go back and go play opposing teams because probably not so much now in a pandemic but they would have been known as a team that lost to a British Basketball League team. And that's no disrespect to any of our British Basketball teams. That's just to them the standards that they have for their national basketball.

Brian Bosche:
Even though we're bringing in American former NBA players, doesn't matter?

Josh Bett:
Matter of pride. You've got to understand, I have a lot of friends who support teams such as Rytas Vilnius, Neptunas Klaipeda, Juventus as well, and for them it's a national obsession. For them nothing else means more, and to lose to a country where basketball isn't so big, for them it would be tough to take. So it was a matter of pride for them.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, well that's understandable. But let's go to the last play, or not the last play, but the last call on NBA. There's a lot of Twitter chatter about the refs are deciding this game. I tweeted that I just hate late calls in general, which this was a no call so maybe I'm going against myself here, but my take on that, the last play, is it's not decided by the last call or the last no call. They had so many opportunities leading up to it. I mentioned the free throw numbers. They had chances before that last possession. It's not the referee. I would say it's more what you mentioned earlier where they could have run maybe a play with a little bit more options instead of dumping it into the post, but it was an unfortunate no call. Do you know, are they allowed to review it?

Josh Bett:
From what I know, you're only allowed to review once a call had been made, so-

Brian Bosche:
Oh, and so there's no call, so you can't review [crosstalk 00:29:46]-

Josh Bett:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
Got it.

Josh Bett:
I'm only guessing that because I spoke to someone I know who's a referee and I think that's what he told me. Dan Routledge, he's the voice of British basketball, he was the commentator in that game. He even spoke about the substitution with Bristol at that time, and that was education for me because I'd actually, one, did that myself, but he clarified that for me. I'm 100% with you. You can make your decisions about it. Was there a reach? Yes. But, you know what? Personally I thought there was contact. It wasn't called. That's life. But you know what? You can't blame the game down to that one situation. There were moments before that, but like I said, in my opinion, Matthew Bryan could have gone to the free throw line for two shots.

Brian Bosche:
He probably would have missed them unfortunately based on the game so far.

Josh Bett:
[crosstalk 00:30:33] Give me grief if I [inaudible 00:30:36] ... I tell you one thing, the first time I met MBA, I was nine years old and he'll probably get annoyed with me telling this story again and again, over and over again. It was at Crystal Palace. I was probably about four foot and he's a year older than me. So we shot on the upstairs court in Crystal Palace where the Towers, when my dad was the assistant coach, were playing some preseason game. He just comes marching on the court, probably two feet taller than me, stares me down and says, "Do you want to play one-on-one?" I said, "No, not really."

Josh Bett:
So we sort of knew each other from there, but he played for my dad in 1980. I've got a lot of respect for him. He's a good friend and teammate of Isaiah Thomas. I think he would probably still beat me in a free throw competition, so I've got to say that if he went to the line he'll probably make those two free throws, but [inaudible 00:31:24] ...

Brian Bosche:
It's jokes, I'm not criticizing.

Josh Bett:
Yeah [crosstalk 00:31:27]-

Brian Bosche:
It could have been crushing either way, but yeah, the games don't ultimately come down to refs. They had so many opportunities. It was just unfortunate to see. But where do we go from here, Josh? The next steps are the FIBA Europe Cup. I don't know very much about the Europe Cup. I don't even know if our audience knows that much about it, so can you give a quick context of the FIBA Europe Cup and why they're now in this group and in this cup rather than the Basketball Champions League? Because it's tough that it's single elimination at this stage. That's brutal.

Josh Bett:
Yeah, it's tough. Usually if we take the pandemic out of the equation, it would have been a two-legged game. They would have played one in London and then they would have played one in the beautiful seaside of the city of [inaudible 00:32:09] which is a wonderful place, but the FIBA Europe Cup, as you mentioned, is just the competition next of us [inaudible 00:32:15] so for the teams that don't make it to the Champions League or can't qualify for it, possibly won't do so strong, there's another opportunity for them to play continental basketball. I looked in their group. They've got a team called ... Maybe I have it wrong. I thought I saw Anwil Wloclawek who are a team from Poland. They might [crosstalk 00:32:32] ... Oh, they're in there. Okay.

Brian Bosche:
Yes.

Josh Bett:
That's a team that's got a magnificent fan base. It's another tournament that's just a stepping stone down from the champion seat, but it's one year older than the Basketball Champions League so it's just another opportunity for these clubs just to see where they're at in terms of continental basketball, what level they're at, and I think it's good for the Lions to be in that competition because I think they'll do very, very well on that team. I think they'll match up very well. That was the competition that the Leicester Riders were in in the 2018-19 regular season when they didn't qualify for the Champions League.

Josh Bett:
Now, they did go win-less in that campaign but they played a very close game against Dino [Mosasari 00:33:09] who won the championship that year. So, after that season with the Riders ... Again, we talked about criticism and support. I was bagging that the Riders would get into the Champions League. For me it's always great, I've commented Great Britain games for World Cup qualifiers and EuroBasket qualifiers and it's a privilege for me to be able to do that, and it's what I want to see. I want to see my country succeed in basketball. I want to see these clubs succeed.

Josh Bett:
So I was hoping that, okay, they didn't do so well in this campaign but this would be a stepping stone for the next season. But nobody was in the competition in beginning of last year before we got to the pandemic. Now the Lions made a crack at it. It was close. They almost got there but they didn't so they're in the FIBA Europe Cup. So they've got to now go to that competition and now they've got to make the name for themselves. But again, we're in the midst of this rule of six right now in the United Kingdom where we don't know what's going on in the British Basketball League.

Josh Bett:
I've just said recently on the Twitter that they can't operate unless they get fans, so at the moment all this talk about where to do next, we need help for the league right now. We need help for professional basketball in this country and I just really hope that the government realizes that when England basketball came out with the figures, something like 1.2 million participants in terms of 900,000 being [inaudible 00:34:23] in the game of basketball, they've got to recognize that. They've got to understand that this game is such a positive externality for kids all over the country. It doesn't matter what income they come from or what ethnic race. That's the beauty of the game of basketball. It brings people together.

Josh Bett:
You love the game so much, you love what it offers, that it doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, what gender you are, what race you are, you play the game because you love it and it's so good for people all over the country, and I hope the government realizes that and does something to help out EB and the BBL but we can only hope right now.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, it's a really interesting dichotomy where I think the numbers were it's the second most played sport at a youth level, basketball? And versus the attention and funding that it gets. Sky Sports did a great overview of the amount of attention and participation versus the amount of funding it gets from the government, and I think Basketball England clarified ... because I think with the rule of six, the BBL teams weren't even sure if they could train together inside. And they clarified and said that yes, elite teams which are designated as elite, they can train, but the fans is a whole nother story.

Josh Bett:
The government needs to realize what these clubs are doing. Leicester Riders, Newcastle Eagles, and Sheffield Sharks as well, I did history videos on those guys during the pandemic, and those teams, the amount of work they put into their communities that goes from the basketball court, I just really wish that whoever in charge that's able to sort of dish out the funding really acknowledges what these clubs have done. You look at Leicester Riders, Russel Levinston, Rob Paternostro, the head coach, not to mention Kevin Routledge as well, what they've done for the city of Leicester with that basketball club is magnificent. The same with [inaudible 00:36:03] I don't know many people that work in the back office at Newcastle Eagles but that needs to be acknowledged and to say, "Look, if you don't let these clubs survive, you're going to actually affect a lot of the communities and the schools that these clubs work with." So I really hope that it turns out the best and that they get some back and some help.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, because a huge part of each BBL team is their foundation side, and listening to the Hoops Fix podcast they had a great owners round table where it's even like ... it might even be bigger than the actual professional team side on some teams where it's a larger team, they get more funding, they're often operated completely separately from the teams, and the impact that that has in the community, you're right, to have those players to look up to, to have those teams to look up to, for the Lions to get a win in Europe which would be an enormous lift for the community and have all of the kids see, "Wow, I can get to that level. We can compete in Europe. I'm going to keep training, I'm going to keep devoting myself to this."

Brian Bosche:
It's going to be tough if there's not more support and there's not fans, because I think we've seen ... It's crazy, the NFL here in the United States where they have capacity ... We are one of the worst countries, if not the worst country in the world, for the outbreak and the number of cases we have and they're still putting fans in stadiums. So, health is obviously always first but I think they either allow fans or allow a safe way for fans to come back. I recommended on Twitter to get those little air helmets for fans so everyone has their personal air devices. Maybe that could work. Find creative solutions. Or if not, provide funding to keep them going because ...

Brian Bosche:
Are there teams legitimately at risk, do you think, of going under if they don't get support and fans this season?

Josh Bett:
I can't speak for individual clubs because I don't know personally the ins and outs of how they do their business. I can only say that it's a known fact that clubs depend on the match day revenues because, again, we don't have that backend from the TV deals. We stream them on YouTube. That was one way to let people know what was out there and sort of the quality. I'm only assuming that business that depends on its customers being there and you're then told those customers can't be there, it's like, how do you get your money of course? [crosstalk 00:38:09]

Brian Bosche:
Only a couple weeks before. They're set to start in a couple weeks.

Josh Bett:
Yeah, it's tough. I thought I read in the [inaudible 00:38:16] ... Do you postpone the league til January or do you call the season off? It's scary because then if you do that, these players that play for these teams, where are they going to go?

Brian Bosche:
Stuck.

Josh Bett:
They've got to go somewhere. As I said before, I just hope that somebody somewhere just realizes that the great good that the game of basketball is doing for people in this country and how it's bringing people together acknowledges that and says, "You know what? Take this. Do what you've got to do until we figure things out and keep helping the community more than anything." You know?

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. Well there was some positive news that Mark Woods broke about 777, Triple 7 Partners, who acquired the Lions were going to inject some marketing and media investment, I think it was 5 million, and then it came back and said there is no consensus and it seems a lot more up in the air now. But you know, I've worked in technology for most of my career and it would be incredibly ... You know, there are some thoughts of, "Well, can we just create a pay-per-view service where we can stream all the games and set up a subscription for it?" And that's not easy to implement in a couple weeks if you want to start the season in a couple weeks, but if there was a delay and they had some time to maybe prep for it, getting this new investment, maybe there is an opportunity to provide that revenue without the fans.

Brian Bosche:
But we had a listener question. Popcorn Jackson, love that name on Twitter, @Medge2Hottie, so just incredible Twitter name all around. "What's the best case scenario for improving the BBL? Or what are some options that you see?" Maybe streaming, maybe it's delaying. What do you think are some of the best path forwards here?

Josh Bett:
It's a tough one because I think the head of the BBL ... So go back to '16-17 and I was at studio one time about to do a Liga de las Américas game. That's like the continental competition South America. I was in one of the backrooms and I remember seeing the live basketball TV domain and it was talking about the partners they had. They had Basketball Champions League, Liga de las Américas, FIBA [inaudible 00:40:17] and I saw British Basketball League so I thought, "Oh wow, they've got British Basketball League on ... live basketball on TV," probably because at that time they were trying to just get the product out. But then [inaudible 00:40:27] into a lot of people, nobody was really watching it because people weren't really going to see British basketball on live basketball at TV.

Josh Bett:
I mean, when I say that, I only spoke to a few people about it, but once it got on YouTube, I was quite impressed to see the numbers of peoples actually going to watch. I mean, for British Basketball League to be getting 2,000 views, I'd say 2, 3, 4,000 views per game on a YouTube for a beginning, that's a decent start of course. So, for them to put it up there, I thought, "This is a good way to get it out there." It could be an amount of time until they sort of improve the product a little bit and how they sort of film games to sort of a get a deal somewhere of course, but things have improved in terms of ... Now I'm talking about overall the British basketball game because from about ... I tell you, about 2006 to about 2012 they had something called a membership crisis where teams were just coming in and out of the leagues and new teams coming in and were going win-less seasons and it was tough, but I would say it really has improved a lot in terms of stability of clubs from about 2014 til about now.

Josh Bett:
And I think the more clubs that, like you said, do a lot more community sort of foundations and become self-sustainable businesses in that capacity and don't have to worry about sort of folding can only help the BBL in the long run of course. It's tough because the idea is you really need that sort of sponsorship, that TV deal that gives you that sort of influx in cash that can go bring you, I guess, just a little bit more. But, what can they do I guess right now if they're on the right tracks. Vince has done that by getting the company from Miami coming in and injecting a little bit of cash. Plymouth Raiders have got a bit ... You know, a new strong ownership coming from Turkey.

Josh Bett:
Maybe it's a matter of time until new owners come in and see the market, the potential for not only British Basketball League but these owners, whatever their trade is, see the potential in the UK market of course. Who knows? I'd say that the game is improving a lot. The quality of players, the quality of coaching. It's improving. We can sit here and criticize and say what it's not, but I can say firmly from going years back, there is a bit of stability and it is getting a little bit better.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, it seems like there's definitely momentum right now. I think with BBC Sport having a live coverage of the Lions was a great indicator. I'm really curious on the numbers they got there. But I think you're right, in terms of the actual what can they do to improve, the NBA came back, no problem. Huge TV deals. Premiere league, no fans, huge TV deals. So if they can get some sort of TV deal, maybe it's getting creative with Amazon, maybe it's getting creative with partnering with Twitch streamers who just stream it live and they try to bring their audience in, there might be some creative ways if fans can't get in there and hopefully they get some investment support to take those on, because it always does require investment to take on those strategies.

Brian Bosche:
But, we will see. It seems like it's changing every week. The rules and the outbreaks and it's just very uncertain times right now which is, I'm sure, frustrating for a lot of fans. But it seems like the sports teams, the leagues, the organizations are trying to do their best. But Josh, anything you want to leave us with about the Lions, BBL? What do you want listeners to leave off with here?

Josh Bett:
You know what? Like I say, to all my friends involved with teams all over the country, best of luck to you for this upcoming year. It's an uncertain time of course but stay strong and just keep on going, I guess. After speaking to a lot of people that they're really worrying about what's coming up and even myself, if we don't have any sort of British basketball or any NBA or any whatever in the next couple months, I think I'll struggle to keep on going of course but hopefully that's not the case. I think I've probably watched an entire NBA 1995-96 season of the Chicago Bull, but I'd say about 30 games in total [crosstalk 00:44:08] ... There's just nothing to do of course.

Josh Bett:
I mean of course I have my job to do. I had to teach from home, but yeah. [crosstalk 00:44:15]-

Brian Bosche:
Stay healthy. Yep. Stay healthy out there.

Josh Bett:
[crosstalk 00:44:18] But we'll try.

Brian Bosche:
Rule of six? Maybe there's some three-on-three league potential to keep people sane. Non-elite people sane by playing a little bit, but we'll see.

Josh Bett:
No referees though. [crosstalk 00:44:28]

Brian Bosche:
No referee. You can't get that seventh, but thanks so much for coming on, Josh. I appreciate it.

Josh Bett:
Thanks so much, Brian. Again, pleasure to meet you and it's great to see people from outside of the UK take such an interest in British basketball and welcome to the family.

Brian Bosche:
Thank you.