Tea Time with Creon Raftopoulos, Head Coach of the Surrey Scorchers

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On this week's Tea Time show, Brian Bosche, The Duke of Hoops, chats with Creon Raftopoulos, Head Coach of the Surrey Scorchers in the British Basketball League. They discuss Creon's playing days in Zimbabwe growing up in a basketball family, becoming a coach in the BBL, building the Surrey Scorchers program, what it's been like coaching through a pandemic, the influence of Tayo Ogedengbe and Joel Freeland on his team, and why the Government should support the BBL.

Full Transcript

Brian Bosche:
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the High Tea Hoops podcast. This is Brian Bosche at the Duke of Hoops. Today, I'm so excited to be joined by the head coach of the Surrey Scorchers, Creon Raftopoulos. Creon, how's it going? Welcome to the show.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Thanks a lot, Brian. Appreciate you having me. Yeah, just trying to make ends meet right now, and we're waiting to see when we can get playing.

Brian Bosche:
Seriously. Yeah. It's been exciting to kind of transition more into BBL coverage and British basketball coverage from the NBA, which is what we've covered a lot, and the WNBA on High Tea Hoops, and we are really excited for the season to start this weekend. We're all anticipating seeing the London Lions in the Basketball Champions League. There's a lot of momentum, and since it's kind of stopped with the delay of the season unfortunately. But before we dive into all that, would just like to start off for our listeners who may not know as much about your background in basketball, do you just want to run through maybe a quick timeline of how you became a head coach in the BBL?

Creon Raftopoulos:
I'll take you way back to when I first started playing. I'm originally from Zimbabwe, and playing in Zimbabwe was ... Zimbabwe's a beautiful place. It was great weather. My level of lifestyle that my parents provided for me was absolutely great. I wanted for nothing, got what I wanted.

Brian Bosche:
And they were basketball players too, right?

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. My dad, probably one of the Zimbabwe legends going back in time and stuff, and then my mom also actually coached the national team, and she played also, so came from a basketball background.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, seriously.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah, just players in the house all the time, male and female and stuff, so kind of grew up with it. Then got into playing, and when I played, I think the ultimate goal was to play for our local club, which was called the Arcadia Bucks.

Brian Bosche:
Okay. Nice.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Which obviously came from kind of the Milwaukee Bucks back in the day. That's definitely. During that journey, I went to a school called Prince Edward High School, one of the top government schools in the country and very renowned for winning in all areas in sports from rugby to football to basketball. So that was the goal, and then I remember one day just being at the school and playing, and an American coach came up to me and asked me about myself and so forth and asked me if I'd ever thought of going to play basketball in the States. To me, I was just like, "Nah. Nah. Never really crossed my mind."

Creon Raftopoulos:
And he's like, "Well, you're about ..." At that point, I think I must have been about six feet tall. He's like, "Oh, you're six feet tall. What position do you play?" I said, "Oh, I'm a point guard." He says, "Yeah, and you shoot the ball really well," so he worked me out, and he was kind of impressed. Then the next thing I knew, he was trying to arrange for me to go to America to a prep school, and found out it was kind of linked to, at the time, I think it was Oklahoma State University. So at the time for me, it's like this really doesn't mean too much to me in terms of American coverage was all NBA. We'd get a [inaudible 00:03:24]. We'd get VHS tapes if people brought stuff in, so you'd watch it on that, but only later on did they start bringing the games live where we had to sit up until like 2:00 in the morning, 3:00 in the morning to catch-

Brian Bosche:
You still do.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. Mike and the Bulls doing their thing. So my journey was destined to go to America. My wife that I'm married to now, we were kind of like high school sweethearts and stuff, and we ended up having Caylin at 18, so that was really young, and then my dad was like, "You're in the real man's world now. You've got to work, so forget about your [crosstalk 00:04:05]."

Brian Bosche:
Can't do that first grad year at an American prep school?

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. It was done. That was it. It was like, you're going to the family business now. Time to work out. So that kind of took me on another path, and then at that point, our club was coming back up, the Arcadia Bucks. I was playing for the national team, and while I was playing for the national team, we got to play against some really good competition. So we played against ... It was kind of regionalized, so we had to play against Angola. Our national team training camp was a week or two before we're going to play Angola. Angola's national training was go to America for a month and play against the Division 1 schools, because Angola's national sport was actually basketball. So we got to play and hang out with the guys that played against the original dream came.

Brian Bosche:
Oh, wow.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. After they got beat by the original dream team, they had a level of confidence that when they play anybody in Africa, it was going to be easy for them. So that was a high level that we got to compete against and stuff, but within my journey I always wanted to coach, so I stated coaching at a really young age. I think I was the youngest coach in Zimbabwe to win a high school national championship. I was 19 at the time.

Brian Bosche:
Wow.

Creon Raftopoulos:
And I coached St. Johns College to a national championship, and so I knew I wanted to coach. But yeah, the dream was all just being involved in basketball, and then Zimbabwe kind of took a change. Now Caylin at the time was about seven, eight years old, and he loved sport, and I was like, is he going to get an opportunity because the way things were changing in Zimbabwe. So I opted ... I had been given offers in the past. I had an opportunity to go play professionally in Greece because of my Greek heritage, and close to going, somebody told me that you're going to have to go two years of national service in the Greek army. And I was like, "Uh."

Brian Bosche:
Maybe not. Maybe won't do that.

Creon Raftopoulos:
I don't think so. So that was the end of Greece when that came along, left that on the side, and ended up coming to England. When I came to England, I was about 27 years old, and I was probably in my prime and was going to work out for a couple of BBL teams, and I had a little bit of a window in which just didn't know what I was going to be doing, and a late friend, one of my mentors, Tony Hanson, who played for the University of Connecticut, he had a team up in Teesside up north called the Teesside Mohawks, and he invited me over and said, "Why don't you come work out with us?" And went to go work out with them, and then just crazily in a little summit game, I got injured. I hurt my knee, and I was like, "Oh, this don't feel good," you know?

Creon Raftopoulos:
So my plan was to go back home and get it sorted out, but then Tony contacted me and said, "Look, you got injured with us. Why don't you come back to Teesside. We'll help get you right. I know you like to coach. I've got an academy team. You can get involved with that," and I was like, "Okay. I probably could do that. That sounds like a plan." Spoke to my mom about it, spoke to my wife, and she was like, "Yeah, let's do that." And so there I was now headed off to Teesside, so I'm in Teesside rehabbing. The plan right there is just to do a little bit of coaching, but play.

Brian Bosche:
Get back on the court. Yeah.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Get back on the court. Now, I'm a guy from Zimbabwe, so I'm now around some American players, I'm around British players, all great guys and stuff, but the more I got to meet from people from England and some of the American guys, there was this element of entitlement, like, "Man, they only gave me three pairs of sneakers. They need to give me more than that, man. They need to do this, man." I'm coming from Zimbabwe, where we played in the rain sometimes. We played in 38 degree heat. I know players that would have one pair of sneakers for an entire season, so I found it really difficult to adjust to that.

Brian Bosche:
Was this in the early 2000s?

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. About 2001.

Brian Bosche:
Kind of still the BBL heyday a little bit? Yeah.

Creon Raftopoulos:
A little bit, yeah.

Brian Bosche:
Where they had more funding? Okay.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Exactly. And operating system I was like, I don't know if I can do this. So Teesside Mohawks were playing Division 1, which is just one league below BBL, but they play against BBL competition in one of the trophy games. It was a trophy that they all played for, and Teesside had some really good players and were able to compete, but the BBL had, I think a ratio of they had five imports or six imports, and that would make the difference. But yeah, being around those guys, I just decided I didn't know if I want to do this here if I can play. I always had felt that I'd be that guy that would have bandages around his elbows and his knees and they'd have to force me into retirement, but with what I went through, I just decided I want to help the young players to understand that you don't play the game just because you want to get paid. We all start playing the game because we love the game, so don't lose that element of loving the game.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So my transition into going into coaching was pretty smooth in that I wasn't too worried about playing anymore. Our academy, the academy that Tony Hanson was running had an ex-BBL player, very good coach, Paul Douglas, that was there, and one of the prime players to come out of there was Kieron Achara that played recently for the Glasgow Rocks and so forth. Being around Kieron, working with him and coaching him, I could see that he was somebody special right from a young age. I actually named my young son, Kieron, after Kieron because of how good Kieron was. Kieron used to actually babysit Caylin for me and stuff. Such a small world.

Creon Raftopoulos:
But yeah, making that transition and helping men to young players and helping them go on to America and so forth kind of made me really good about what I was doing. Worked with a pro team. Teesside was still dominating, doing well, so I still mentored, learning, and coaching there. Then I think Tony reached a point where he didn't want to coach anymore, so he gave me the reigns and I took over. In Division 1, we got relegated the one year, and then I went back and I was like, "No, I can't go out like that," and then we got promoted back to Division 1. I was like, "Okay, that's it. I'm done with the pros. I don't want to work with the pros anymore. Young players only," and I got moved down south.

Creon Raftopoulos:
It was called Guildford Heat, and I got approached to do some community coaching. They were doing a coaching change at the moment at that time, and I was like, "As long as I don't have to work with the pro players, I'm good. I'm happy to just work with kids." So they're like, "Okay," and start getting that program all together, help with the juniors, working with that. They had a coach, a really nice guy who played, Chad McKnight, was there for a year, but things never really worked out for him. Then the owner, Al McClafferty at the time, called me in the office and asked me if I could find him a coach for the BBL team. So there were a whole lot of people available. I sort of remember Steve Bucknall and Gary Stronach and so forth, so I'm ringing out these names to him.

Creon Raftopoulos:
He's like, "Okay." He looks over the names, and then I got a week or two later he calls me in and he's like, "Yeah. Really, really good coaches you've offered me to take over, but I think you're going to have to coach the team." I was like, "No chance, Allen. I don't want to do this." He said, "Well, let's look at it this way. You're either going to have a job coaching the professional team, or you're going to have no job." And then I was like ...

Brian Bosche:
Force your hand a little bit.

Creon Raftopoulos:
"I'd love to coach in the BBL. This is going to be great."

Brian Bosche:
Good move.

Creon Raftopoulos:
That's how I pretty much got involved in the BBL, but I'd worked my way up, so there were a lot of coaches that had a lot of respect for me and thought that I'd earned my stripes to get to that point.

Brian Bosche:
You started so young. If you're coaching at 19 ... It's so good to hear about the transition too, because so many players, once they get out of pros or college or whatever high level they get to, it's a struggle to adapt to life without playing and without having that routine and team, and whether they go into coaching or media or business or whatever they transition to, it's hard. But you had that base of coaching from 19, coaching the national championship, which is ... And then you already had, what, eight years of experience at 27, or 10 years at 29?

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. I had som experience, yeah. But the pro level was something new, but I felt I was just like if you ... I learned something very quick about the pros. If you want to get results, you need them to be on your side and you need them to believe in what you're doing them. If you're paying them millions and hundreds and thousands, it's very easy just to get a whoop and do so forth, but with the BBL, the salaries aren't that high. The salaries are improving. You've got to have a relationship that the guy's willing to run through a brick wall for you and for the team. So I learnt that really quickly, because I think that was one of the most important things coaching at this level is man management. There's a lot of good coaches there that are great at X's and O's and so forth, but man management becomes a key factor if you're going to be able to do anything with these pro players.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, exactly. And this is in the 2000s, right? So this is when the BBL lost the TV deal, and it was a little bit of a lull in BBL. What was it like leading up to the 2012 Olympics, because I know there was a lot of excitement and funding for basketball in the UK and the GB team. I know Kieron was on that GB team. What was it like, the excitement kind of leading up to those Olympics in the BBL? Did it carry over?

Creon Raftopoulos:
So I probably have an interesting story, because I take it back to a thing that happened in Zimbabwe. When I was in Zimbabwe in 1995, Zimbabwe were hosting the All Africa Games. So you have the Africa Championships that are big, and then you have the All Africa Games, and Zimbabwe were hosting the All Africa Games. And I was on their squad, and then basically two days before, I got dropped from the team because they were bringing in another player. And I always tell kids and stuff that there, because it happened to one or two other guys who just were like, "We're not playing basketball anymore," whereas I used it as fuel to kind of like, "Okay. That hurt. That really, really hurt, but I'm going to keep on going and see where it takes me." When you fast-forward after a couple of years, everybody that was on our national team at that point, a majority of them had retired and I was still playing, so I kind of outlasted a lot of guys.

Creon Raftopoulos:
But going back to the All Africa Games was an opportunity for the Zimbabwe to build up a structure of arenas, and my dad was the chairman at the time and was an outgoing chairman. One of the things he spoke to them was there's lots of money to build arenas. Let's make sure we get some arenas built. They made a proposition to the basketball union to say, "Well, we've got the city sports center that you play basketball at anyone. Why don't you just play basketball here, and it'll be your building and so forth going forward?" I remember that they did that, and then that had one or two smaller structures built around for training purposes. But long story short, once the All Africa Games ended and they wanted to go into the city sports center to play basketball, they were like, "No, you can't have it this weekend. There's church. Oh, no, you can't have it this weekend. There's a concert." Or, "You can't have it this weekend. There's a government rally."

Brian Bosche:
That's not your arena then. Yeah.

Creon Raftopoulos:
It's not your arena, so we lost out. So when we were starting for the 2012 Olympics, definitely a lot of excitement. All these guys were coming back in. It was happening on Surrey's doorstep because the Surrey Sports Park was actually hosting the futures practices and some of the lady practices, so I was lucky enough to be there just watching the training sessions, watching Nick Nurse and could just go through the places with guys. I knew Andrew Lawrence at the time, and he was one of the young guys coming through, and he was one of the surprise selections that made it onto that 2012 roster.

Creon Raftopoulos:
But England's structure, so when they were interviewing me as a BBL coach, so what you think about the Olympics and the legacy, because it was all legacy, legacy, and I'm like, "I can't see these venues being built, so I don't know what the legacy's going to be. I think those players are going to have an amazing legacy because it's something nobody can ever take away from the players, but in terms of facilities or an arena or practice venue that's going to be here because of that, I can't see that being built. I can see a velodrome for the cycling. I can see some swimming pools. Those are going to be there when the Olympics go, but right now from what I can see, they have made a temporary stadium for basketball, and the finals were going to be at The O2." I was like, "I don't see the O2 being the basketball arena on a weekly basis." So I wasn't sold on legacy because of what I'd experienced in 1995.

Brian Bosche:
Right. O2's not a place you could have consistent BBL games or have a BBL team located. You're right. They'd get scheduled over all the time.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Exactly. Exactly. Beyonce's coming in town.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, sorry. You can't.

Creon Raftopoulos:
You can't play. Move aside. Yeah. And so because of having that experience, I wasn't too excited about it. But Olympics came. We were obviously tremendously proud of the way the guys accounted themselves. It had been a long journey getting to there, but it looked like British basketball was on the map again and on the rise. We had Pops Mensah-Bonsu, we had Luol Deng, Joel Freeland, so you had a core, and they were NBA level players that were playing in the NBA, which was key, rather than just saying we've got up and coming guys. But we had some really, really good players that were in the league also, which I think helps the country. But yeah, so 2012 came, went, and no stadiums, so I don't know. Apart from the players and the players that played in there, I don't see how basketball completely has benefited from that experience. It was a golden opportunity, but I think it could have been a lot better if we got some arenas from it.

Brian Bosche:
As someone coming into the British basketball community in the last couple years and learning more, it does seem like access to facilities is one of the top reasons that it's being held back, and listening to Vince McCauley on the Hoops Fix podcast and in his different interviews talking about how hard it was for the Lions to find somewhere to play, they ended up at The Cooper Box. Which at least there's one, but if you want affordable basketball courts, basketball arenas, they could be small too. You're not trying to get 50,000 or 30,000 in O2 every game.

Creon Raftopoulos:
No.

Brian Bosche:
Basketball's a sport where it's almost nicer when it's a smaller arena. In Seattle, there's the Key Arena, which was just a madhouse because people are on top of the court, and it goes crazy. You don't need an enormous arena for that, but you see that with ... There's only one London BBL team. The Royals are gone, the Towers, the Leopards, the whole legacy, because it's just too expensive and hard to find facilities in London and round the country, which is too bad. I think you're right. I hadn't really thought about it from that where you weren't too excited because there's not the facilities being built, but it makes a lot of sense for the legacy coming afterward.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Definitely. Definitely.

Brian Bosche:
It probably hurt them. So that was the Heat, which you're repping still with your Miami Heat hat, which I think went to the Surrey Heat, right? It just kept The Heat, then they changed it to the Scorchers?

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah, changed Surrey Heat. That's right.

Brian Bosche:
So that was 2010 was when you became the head coach for the first time in the BBL?

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. That sounds about right, yeah. It was Guildford Heat, and then I did one season as Guildford Heat, and then the following season was Surrey Heat.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. And to kind of skip forward a little bit to what ... I love this in Wikipedia. It's the franchise's new era in 2015 as the Surrey Scorchers. They brought you back as the head coach after in and out a little bit, and since then, the team has seen a lot of growth, growing from the 2015 to the 2016 season, all the way through. Last year was a little bit of a lull it seemed like, but what has it been like growing this program in Surrey, where you've had good success the last few seasons. You didn't get rated last by the BBL podcast show. You're still in the mid-tier of BBL teams this year, so there's hope for you. But what has it been like growing this program over the last five years?

Creon Raftopoulos:
I think, like you say, that's the big part of it is I accept that fans are fans. I'm wearing my Manchester United top today.

Brian Bosche:
I know.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Just a little bit in honor.

Brian Bosche:
You play us. I'm a Tottenham fan. Sorry.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Oh, okay.

Brian Bosche:
We play on Sunday. It's going to be ... Don't hang up on the podcast.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Nah, nah.

Brian Bosche:
I'll be fun.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So it's a special one for me because I lost my dad three years ago, and today's actually his birthday, so I thought, "You know what? I'll represent him and I'll throw on the United top and stuff specially for him." Yeah. That's why I'm in these colors.

Brian Bosche:
Sorry to hear that, but you're honoring by wearing the United.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
You love to see it.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. So back to with the building a franchise or getting to your point is when we got there, and there's a guy that the Scorchers fans owe a lot to. It's Gavin Baker, who started as the GM and is now managing director of Surrey Sports Park, because he's got a passion for basketball. He fights for everything that's basketball. But he spoke to me and he told me what we're trying to do. I said, "It's going to take some time, but we can get from where we were, zero fans to probably one of the best supported clubs in the BBL." The key part was working with all the local clubs in the area, and I've always made time to work with the local clubs and do coaching with kids and stuff, so I had that rapport with some of the coaches.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So they were happy to promote the Scorchers to their kids, because that's one of the culture things that happens in English basketball, English sport, basketball that sometimes needed is we'll go on about how it's one of the most popular sports in the country and so forth, and then a team will struggle to fill an arena. That's because you need to get the coaches on board, because kids believe in anything the coaches say. So if their coach says, "Go watch BBL," the kids will go watch BBL. But if the coach don't like BBL, there's no chance the kids are going to watch BBL. Kids' heroes aren't necessarily going to be the superstars but are going to be people that they come in regular contact with. So I kind of knew that working with the teams, coaches, the lower team coaches in the communities that would make a big difference.

Brian Bosche:
It's huge. I grew up a Denver Nuggets fan. I lived in Denver. I moved there in the late 90s, and it was literally I think one of the worst teams in NBA history. We had Nick Van Exel starting, Antonio McDyess. It was a terrible era for Nuggets basketball. I think we set the record for most consecutive losses in a season. It was bad, but I was on the Junior Nuggets team, so I loved the Nuggets. I loved Nick Van Exel. Didn't matter how good they were. Didn't matter if they weren't stars. They went into the community, and I loved it.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Exactly. Just as you're saying there, so when we were going as Scorchers and we got going, it's a weird one because you lose a game by three points, and you're devastated. You're like, "Lost another one." But the people, the fans and the kids, they're smiling. They're kind of like, "It's okay. We're going to win the next one." They're so happy just because we put the time into being in the community. Like I always say to people, don't get me wrong. I would love to win. I'm a competitor. I always tell the guys, in my lifetime, I've played about 50 games of Monopoly, of which only three finished. The three that finished were the three that I won.

Brian Bosche:
That is the hardest game to finish.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
And you won all three?

Creon Raftopoulos:
The other ones, the drink went across the board.

Brian Bosche:
Just smashing the board across.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Something happened. I had to stop playing golf because of my competitiveness, because if the round's not going well, then it's like ...

Brian Bosche:
I'm done.

Creon Raftopoulos:
What's the use? So I am competitive, and I want to win, but I've got to be realistic about stuff. One of the tough things as coaches is we do a lot right, and we're very honest and we bring the players in, so the players can't ever complain about, "Oh, you said this would happen or that would happen," so we look after the players, but I have to accept that they're going to get a better offer for the following season. So that continuity, that building of culture, it becomes very difficult. So we've got great culture developing within management and off the court, which is god, but the culture on the court, you need a core of regular guys to be able to keep that going. That's what has been a big challenge.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So it has been a lot of highs, a lot of lows and stuff in that, and like you said, you're going to have the social media people are going to ... The fans are going to go out there, and they're going to let you know how they feel and stuff. So I'm one that understands the importance of social media, but I love social media for positive. On the other side of it, where people use it to vent and to get at people, I don't worry about that for me, because I'm not on social media, but I do worry about that for my family, because my family kind of has to read that and has to go if somebody's have a bad day, so let's take it out on Coach Creon or so forth.

Creon Raftopoulos:
But I think developing that culture within the Scorchers, and we're kind of on a good journey. And I'm not trying to coach forever. It's about finding the next people to come in, but I want to do what's best for that franchise. When it's time for me to step aside, that's what I'll do, but right now I've still got the energy and the fight to want to win, so that's why I continue where I am.

Brian Bosche:
Two really good points there. For social media and sports, you're in the hardest industry. I've worked with a lot of sports teams. A lot of the social media managers in a lot of the professional sports teams in the States and in the UK, it is brutal. Just don't read the mentions, don't search your own name. It is not worth it. Nothing constructive. You're right. It's just venting, and you've just kind of got to take it. That's a tough part, especially for an athlete, or especially if you're in the organization to read that.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. I get told when people get to know me, they kind of go, "You're actually a really nice guy." And I'm like, "Oh, thank you."

Brian Bosche:
What are you reading?

Creon Raftopoulos:
And then it's like, "Well, when I saw you on the court coaching, you look so ..." I'm like, "Well, I'm in the game. That's the game zone."

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, have you played Monopoly with this guy? It's a different state.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Totally. Totally. So you kind of have to remind people, I kind of translate I'm human and the players are human, so when people are on social media and you've got a guy that his name is Darth Vader, or he's got some different name, and you don't know who the person is, is I do something after all our games, all right? If we win a game, I'm out of there. As great as it feels to win a game, I'm out of there. I'm out of there, I'm into my changing room, I've got to say my prayer, "Thank you, God. We got this win," and I'm out of there. I'm like, "Good. It's going to be a good week." When we lose a game, I sit there and I watch who's the genuine fan. I'm watching. Who's the fan that's staying back to say to the guys, "Tough luck, guys. Next game. Tough luck, guys. Next game."

Creon Raftopoulos:
The part that people don't understand about that is it's so difficult because sometimes a person that just could be ripping you to pieces is the same person that will want to smile and shake your hand after you win a game. Then the players and the coaches, we've got to be that same professional person. The BBL is growing. Things are on the up because of the help of social media, because we know we're not on national TV, and the BBL franchise do, as you're finding out, all the research you're doing, the BBL franchises do an amazing job of putting on a professional show. And so the perception is that we are on the level as Premiere League football players and Premiere League coaches, which is so far from the truth. People wouldn't know what a day in the life of Coach Creon is like compared to a day in the life of maybe Jose Moreno. But the perception is still one of professional. It's professional. It's like this, and I accept that, but sometimes it's tough to just keep having to explain yourself and when not to listen, when to react and stuff like that.

Brian Bosche:
You're right.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So I'm lucky that a lot of fans kind of understand.

Brian Bosche:
You're right. They're used to Premiere League, and Premiere League fans, wow. Coming from the States, the level of passion and scrutiny is more than any sport I've seen in the States, so that's very tough. And you're right, you get compared a lot to that, because you do have a good production, but the amount of funding, the amount of resources you have on the team, even if there's criticisms of, "Hey, the BBL's not marketing as well as it could this summer," well, they brought in Selena Conroy, who I think has done a really good job and started the podcast. When people are furloughed, they can't work. There's nothing they can do even if they want to.

Brian Bosche:
You don't understand that a lot of these teams, they might not even have a social media person, so criticizing them for not doing as much marketing, like you need the investment there. You're not a Premiere League team, and it's tough. I've been impressed with what I've seen from the different teams, Tom setting this up for us. The production on a lot of teams is good. It's just there aren't resources, and people need to understand that and be a little bit more positive about, because I am impressed with how the league has been marketing itself in the last few months leading up to the season.

Creon Raftopoulos:
No. With what we have, the people that are there try their best to life it as high as we can and stuff, and that's what I said to you in the beginning. I will do the podcasts, I will do the interviews and so forth because it's a way of getting our brands out there, and you never know who's watching. Somebody might be like, "This is such a good product. Why don't I invest in it," and so forth, because everybody thinks that it's already all there, so nobody can get involved, but BBL is very open to it. Sponsors across different businesses and so forth to get involved.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. Another good point that you made was Surrey especially is a smaller market team within the BBL. Doesn't have 777 partners from the Lions with this investment to pay, and it reminds me a lot of what we see in the Premiere League where some teams have hundreds of millions, billions to spend on players, and some don't. Same thing in the NBA. If you're not LA, if you're not the Knicks. Well, the Knicks can't get anyone, but if you're not LA, it's a much different situation being in that mid market. I spoke to one of the directors of marketing at The Thunder. In Oklahoma City, it's just different. They're not going to attract a lot of the same free agents as LA is.

Creon Raftopoulos:
I've been reading about how difficult that is, and that's still ...

Brian Bosche:
Still the NBA.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. It's the NBA. Going to get paid multi millions, and these agents like, "That's not a good market for you." So yeah.

Brian Bosche:
And you're talking about that where you're going to have players, if they perform well at Surrey, are going to go somewhere else, just like Anthony Davis is going to leave the Pelicans and go to the Lakers or go as that transition, so all you can really focus on is how do we build that sustainable, good culture with the front office and with the culture of the team. So that's actually one of the questions Rob Hunt, who on Twitter is a serious Scorchers fan in his bio, so we've got someone there, asked this question. With the budget disparity in the BBL and what the Scorchers have available, what is genuinely achievable? What do you see as some of the goals maybe this season or over the next five years with your current budget, with the level of the program? You can speak for the Surrey and then maybe some other BBL teams as examples of the smaller market teams. He asked what's achievable? What is really the goal here?

Creon Raftopoulos:
I think everybody knows that that's around sport, that the more money you can spend, the higher the level the players you're going to attract. Looking at our Surrey roster this year is the most experienced roster that I've probably ever had, and it was a group guys that are at a certain point in their career, and like we spoke about early on, it's like what's life after basketball? Because the guys that are on our roster, a majority of them still got about five years I would say at least in order to play, but now's the time that it's also got to be planning for life after basketball. You can't just play those five years out and then be like, "Okay, what do I do next?"

Creon Raftopoulos:
A lot of people forget or should remember that a lot of these guys have got their degrees from universities, but they got that degree almost 10 years ago or 12 years ago, so as soon as they get out, it's almost like, "Well, you've got no work experience on that particular degree, so you might have to go get your master's," which obviously with a lot of players where they have to end up going back to university-

Brian Bosche:
Transition, yeah.

Creon Raftopoulos:
... in their 30s just to get back into the swing of things. But going back to the original things, I've accepted where we are budget-wise, and I've always been honest, because I've been in situations where teams have had to fold, so I've never ever gone and banged on the door and said, "If you just give me an extra 5,000 pounds, this is what I'll be able to do."

Brian Bosche:
It's not sustainable. Yeah.

Creon Raftopoulos:
It's just not going to be sustainable, so I try and do the best with what I've got. This year's team, on paper and with the style that I like to play, looks very strong.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. You have some good new additions on the roster.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Definitely.

Brian Bosche:
Skyler White, who's also Washington. Clyde Hill, right in my neighborhood.

Creon Raftopoulos:
That's right. That's right. He'll be rocking his Seattle Super Sonics shorts all the time.

Brian Bosche:
Yes, he will.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. So with the roster that we have now, I would like to be able to add to it, but that's the budget done on the eight bodies that I've got, so it's going to be hopefully keeping everybody fit. I would say that with this roster, I would be aiming for a top five, but I want to win stuff, because I modestly do go into every league season going we're going to be competitive. I promise the fans. We're going to give it our all and stuff, but our fans are so loyal, I want to tell them that we want to go and try to win something. One of my coaches is in Zimbabwe used to always say to me, "Creon, how many people play a game of basketball?" So I said, "Five on the court against five." He said, "All right. All you need is five."

Brian Bosche:
Five. Yeah.

Creon Raftopoulos:
And I was like, "Okay." And he was like, "If you get six, that's a bonus. If you get seven, wow. If you get eight, wow. If you get nine, absolutely great." So I had gone away from that because I would try and fill a roster of 10, but this season I was like, you know what? I'm going to get some veteran guys. They might have to play in a certain way, but I think I can make this work. The funny part of it is I always tell people, this isn't the Creon world of basketball. I'm a student of the game. I'm always learning. I'm always learning.

Creon Raftopoulos:
One of the things that I sent to our captain, Tayo, was I took some stats of two teams, and I sent it to him. I said, "If we can do something similar to this, we're going to be really good." This was way before the playoffs started. And he looked at the stats and he was like ... I took off the team name and the players names, but I put what they were averaging. He was like, "Who are they?" I was like, "Just try and figure it out. Try and figure it out." And then he was like ... He couldn't get it. I was like, "That's the Miami Heat and the Toronto Raptors, all right? They play seven-man to eight-man rotations, and this is a 48-minute game, but when other people have to step in, they're ready to do certain things. So we're only playing a 40-minute game, so if we look after ourselves, you veterans or experience guys ..." I don't like to call them veterans too much, but "You experienced guys should be able to hold it together in order for us to be dominant enough with a small rotation."

Creon Raftopoulos:
So seeing Nick Nurse and Spoelstra do what they've done with their teams and with small rotations kind of made me go, "Okay, maybe it is possible for us to make it work this way." That has been our approach. If we can get into that top five, that would be great, but nobody remembers who was in the top five, so we will go full out to just try and win something.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. I think you've even seen with the Lakers, you only need two, really.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Oh, yeah. That's true.

Brian Bosche:
Not to discount the role players.

Creon Raftopoulos:
But I did tell the Lakers, as a coach, we like to be smug and think like we know stuff, and my players get upset with me because I always say, "I told you so," even when I never told them so. But I said it to them when Avery, Bradley and Rondo weren't in the lineup. I was like, "I don't know about the Lakers without those two."

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. They're huge.

Creon Raftopoulos:
They were like, "Come on, man. What are you talking about, Coach? Don't be so ..." And then Rondo came back, and I had the guys talking about calling in play of Rondo, which he hates because Rondo's just a great player. He just knows how to play the game, and he has been a difference maker, Rondo and Caruso. No disrespect to the talented J.R. Smith or Dion Waiters, but those are the guys that have made a different in the Lakers being great, because the two get to be the two.

Brian Bosche:
Yes, supported by-

Creon Raftopoulos:
As Shaq calls them, then the others come in and do their thing.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. If Rondo's making threes at a 40% or 42% or whatever it is, that's ... With his passing and just court, he's been there before. That's tough.

Creon Raftopoulos:
I was ready to switch off the TV when he made one three, and they said he's shooting at 45%.

Brian Bosche:
It's like, "Okay."

Creon Raftopoulos:
Oh, boy.

Brian Bosche:
The Lakers don't need that.

Creon Raftopoulos:
No.

Brian Bosche:
But I think that's a great point where, okay, you just need that core squad. You can push for it. Nick Nurse, and you see Coach Bud for the Bucks get criticized for not playing his best players enough.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Over and over, yeah.

Brian Bosche:
Over and over. I guess that transitions into if you're playing the players more, if you're trying to get that cohesive six, seven, eight-man rotation, which the Raptors/Heat comparison ... I think The Heat almost had five people score over 20 points in the game. Love to see that. What has it been like trying to get those players up to speed in the pandemic? It's been so hard to train. You mentioned you're playing outside in parks to try to get the team together. What has it been like trying to prepare the squad with so much uncertainty leading into this season, and just trying to get them really back in game shape? Because I've told this to Josh Bett last week. I'm terrified to get back on a basketball court again after seven months, because I don't know what my body's going to do.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So we were fortunate. In Surrey, we were really working overtime to get people back on the court. I tend to help as many teams in the league as possible with my summer workouts and getting guys together. For me, it's not a Surrey Scorchers. It's Surrey Scorchers that make it happen. As I said, like having a director like Gavin Baker who allows me to do stuff like that is key, but it's developing a culture. If you were to ask me a question, what is British basketball culture, I would be like ... And maybe you could ask somebody else what is British basketball culture, and they would also struggle too, where it is. It's something that I think we're all working on doing, so my thing is in the States, the best players get in the gym, and they play against each other, and it helps raise their game and the profile of the game. That's my thinking of when we have these workouts.

Brian Bosche:
Even pros do that. You see them in the off season. All the best players in the NBA go together and train together.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. So when we go clearance and we were taking people's temperatures and so forth and doing screenings to get guys under the court, we ended up with we had, what? Four guys that are playing the Plymouth Raiders this year. We had Matthew Bryan-Amaning, who's now ended up playing again with the Lions. We had a couple of the last decisions. We had Teddy Okereafor, who plays in Europe, Rob Gilchrist, so we had a lot of players from all over, of which I was lucky that I had Tayo, Lovell, Caylin, and Skyler, who I knew were coming back, so I had four guys. I'm like, "Oh, thank God. At least I've got four of my guys in here benefiting from all of this."

Creon Raftopoulos:
Then when we started putting things together, TrayVonn Wright had been working out with us for a season or two, so we knew what TrayVonn was about, so we were over the moon to have someone of TrayVonn's ability coming in, and then Rashad spoke to me early when Plymouth said they weren't going to be taking him back, and we knew that he had been a top three scorer in the league. It was interesting, because when he reached out to me, he's known as a scorer. He said, "Coach, if I can get on your team, I want to win. I don't need the ball all the time. I will do whatever it is." That made the conversation a whole lot easier, because we only have got one basketball, and we know that people can score on our team. We do have a bunch of scorers. So getting him in was brilliant. Then Martelle McLemore, I brought in Martelle McLemore from Western Michigan when he was a rookie, and first three seasons he played for me in the BBL, he averaged closed to 19 points a game.

Brian Bosche:
Wow.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Without me running anything for him, so we knew he can play. Here he is in his 30s now, but he was looked after by Bob at Thames Valley Cavaliers, so every summer Martelle would contact me. "Coach, let's workout here. Coach, I need to come back to the BBL." And we do this dance seasonally every summer for five summers running, and he'd go back and he'd go play with Thames Valley, which as long as he is good, I was happy. And then this year, he was like, "No, I've been speaking with Bob, and I've really got to get back in." I was like, "Your spot's there if you really want to do this, Martelle." And so to get Martelle was big, because he plays both ends of the court, and I still think he's still got a lot to prove. He's got that chip on his shoulder, so he'd want to do stuff with us that would make a difference.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So that made the roster a lot easier, and then just in our workouts and the practices we've had, there has been a lot of selflessness. I know that that can change as soon as there's a referee and kit on and so forth, but it's a mature group. I tell you something, we managed to get Connor Cashaw, who played at Sheffield and had a really big year at Sheffield, and he's come in. He looks like a natural point guard. He's so smart, but he's capable of scoring, so that excites me to another level. So it's just about keeping everybody fit, and then we'll see what we can do. But yeah, the guys suffer. Everybody, basketball players across the world, amateur players right to the pro players, they really suffered during the pandemic.

Creon Raftopoulos:
I remember the first session we had indoors, it was like kids' first day at school. They walked into the gym. They sat on the chair, and they looked up and they were looking at the hoops, and like this is about to happen. We counted the months, and it was crazy. It was March something that we'd last been on a basketball court.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. It's flown by. It's been so long.

Creon Raftopoulos:
That was, yeah, late August that we got onto the court or early August, so yeah. It was tough for the players, and then once again I had to be like, "Slow down."

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. We've got a whole season.

Creon Raftopoulos:
"Slow down. You don't know what could happen to your body, because this could be a shock to the system. Your muscles aren't like they used to be," so we just had to slow it down, because they were ready just to go crazy, all of them. But it was great to me.

Brian Bosche:
I think you mentioned in one of your interviews, it's like it makes you appreciate it more. It makes you appreciate the game and the role of it in your life. We saw Kevin Love had a really good article this summer about mental health and basketball and how players will ... They are basketball. They are who they are on the court, and there is no one outside of it, and I hope a lot of players had a chance to assess things and see who they are outside of basketball and see how much it means to them.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Exactly. Off of that, Brian, I can speak from a personal thing, because my own son. Caylin came out with major depression, and I'm living with him, and we're going through, and I was like, "Whoa. I'm a bad parent. How did I not know this?" He highlighted stuff in that day, and then other players that play in the BBL and play at a high level and the young players all started reaching out to him and was like, "Oh, wow."

Brian Bosche:
It's so hard.

Creon Raftopoulos:
It's so hard, and it's taken for granted, and there is that macho level to it where you think you're so macho, you don't need to talk about this. That's being soft and so forth, so it's something I learnt this summer that I'll make sure that I always speak my players, and I have good relationships with players that aren't also on my team, but I will ask, "Man, are you good? Is there anything you want to talk about?" Sometimes just listening to somebody helps, but like Kevin Love and DeRozan.

Brian Bosche:
Paul George during the playoffs, DeRozan.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. I started reading about what their journeys had been, and so as we said, the perception's always that it's just amazing, but there are some demons out there that people just don't have control over.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. Especially when you're playing competitively from, what, six or seven in a lot of these. It's just, that's your whole life. I was a competitive tennis player growing up and traveled the country, trained at academies. Basketball was always my fun sport, which is why it's more sustainable for me now and why I'm now playing basketball and not tennis. I'm totally burnt out of tennis, but you associate your identity with wins and losses, and it becomes your world. You're like, "All right, if I'm not a ranked tennis player on the top 10, I'm nothing." I think you're a better player on the court when you start to get some of that balance and you start to work on mental fitness.

Creon Raftopoulos:
And enjoying it.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, and enjoying it.

Creon Raftopoulos:
The enjoyment. I think a lot of people just somehow lose that enjoyment, and I always try and say that to guys. Like, look, if we aren't enjoying this, then we've got to stop. We might as well stop, because we aren't being paid one million a season to play this. If you're getting paid one million a season, maybe.

Brian Bosche:
It's a job.

Creon Raftopoulos:
It's a job. A little bit more, but I agree with that.

Brian Bosche:
And there's only so much ... You have a role as a coach, a huge role as a coach, but I think having someone like Tayo on the team where I just listened to him on the Hoops Fix podcast. Really impressed with just how well-spoken he is, what his attitude is, him as a leader. What has it been with him kind of being that locker room presence. It sounds like he's the in between between the players and you and even the rest of the league, almost the spokesperson. What is it like having someone like that on your team to help as you're going through all of this craziness of the season?

Creon Raftopoulos:
I think the amazing thing about a person like Tayo is in a world where ... Do they use that FOMO? Fear of missing out?

Brian Bosche:
Yes, definitely.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. So there's a lot of that. It's so scary. They're so worried about missing out that they might make the wrong decision, and so when Tayo and I spoke early and we were like, "So how long are you going to be traveling around the country, around Europe trying to find that right job and so forth, and then trying to come back?" And that's why he kind of made the decision, like, "You know what? You're right." He spoke to Gavin and agreed that he's just going to make Surrey home, and he's going to get a mortgage. He's got his side business with his wife and so forth and kind of set that up, so he's got that level of maturity. A lot of guys look at him maybe enviously, but they look at him and be like, "Oh, how do I get the Tayo deal," and so forth. But what they don't realize is he's a very humble individual. I know, I understand from social media, it might come across as this, this, this, but he's good at his social media because it's part of what his business is.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. He's got to get sponsors and brands. That's a huge part of it.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Exactly. So he does that very well, but he's comes across as being really humble. He works really, really hard. The one summer, we went the summer and Tayo was probably shooting 20% from the three point line, and we said, "The whole summer, we're going to work on this. We're going to just go to the corner," and I rebounded for him, and I rebounded for him. "What are we doing today, Coach?" "We're going to shoot corner threes, Tayo." And we shot, and we shot. "What are we doing today?" "Corner threes, Tayo." And we just did that and did it, and then in the following season, he is the best corner three point shooter in the BBL. So each time we give him, challenge him to do something, he gets on it and he does the right stuff.

Creon Raftopoulos:
He's also, along the way, I've always been on him about communication. We had a young player that has developed into one of the better players in the BBL in Jordan Williams that plays at Worcester Wolves. And when Jordan first came in, him and Tayo were banging heads, and I was like, "Tayo, you've got to listen to Jordan. You're this age. Jordan's that age. If you guys communicate, there's going to be a big difference." Then we spoke about it, because things change. Old school to where we are now, some old school things are just illegal. I can't throw a ball at a player anymore. I might get sued or something. So some things have changed. Then him and Jordan start communicate, and then all of the sudden we've got a [inaudible 00:52:09] that are good inside-out.

Creon Raftopoulos:
But Tayo's willing to listen, and he's a very respectful guy, so that makes my job so much easier knowing that he's not going to complain about stuff. I can just say to him, "Look, this is what we're going to do, Tayo. That's what's going to happen," and he buys into it. I think like you said, he wants what's better for the league and for the players, so hopefully people have spoken about getting into a player's union and doing stuff. Those are things that any professional league needs, and I know that people are discussing stuff, so hopefully it's something that can be achieved.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. Well, you need people like that in leagues like this.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Definitely.

Brian Bosche:
Where they can speak for the players. They have a little bit higher presence. They're there for the longer term and have bought in. It's also, like earlier in the podcast, you were saying you show rosters to him and say, "Hey, this is the direction we want to go," and you're getting his buy-in so he can get the rest of the team to be bought in. So it's good to have that person to bounce off of. And speaking of team leaders, we have a lot of questions on Twitter about how is it having Joel out there, one of the best British basketball players of all time? I see him practicing in the gym with you guys, showing the step back, one-leggers.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Listen, he is ... I get to work with a lot of high level players, but the brilliant thing of having worked with Joel when Joel was in Portland, when he'd come to Surrey and get a couple workouts and stuff in that, and then when he went to got to CSK Moscow, which he'll tell you he never really enjoyed, but it was his job. He went there, and he'd come back. His skillset from just putting the hours in was just unbelievable, and so being able to work with somebody like him, I was able to to kind of ... Whenever somebody came to the gym, it made it easier for me. "Look, you need to be making eight out of ten. When we do this draw, you should be getting no less than eight," and because I had that level that Joel was at and was expected of him when he was playing in the NBA.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So when he had retired, he came back and was like, "What's going on, Coach?" I Was like, "Oh, man, I'd love to have you in the gym." So he came in the gym, he sat with me. We watched everybody work out. Had a court on the side, he picked up the ball, started taking a couple of shots, and then next thing, he was like, "What you guys doing?" I was like, "Oh, we're going some shooting. Want to jump in? Jumped in, and right up until, unfortunately, COVID hit us, he was now scrimmaging.

Brian Bosche:
That's amazing.

Creon Raftopoulos:
He had got up to fitness, and he was scrimmaging. Obviously, I'm like a coach in a candy store, like, Joel just plays for me. Oh my God. But I respect what Joel's done.

Brian Bosche:
Absolutely.

Creon Raftopoulos:
I would never put any pressure on him or anything like that. Just having him in the gym is so amazing for the players, because I want to give my players the best experience they can have, so when it's time to do low post work, I might have some stuff to do, but there's time when I can go, "Hey, Joel. Can we just do low post work?" And he does it with a smile on his face. But the stuff that never changes is that he's competitive. So the other day we were shooting.

Brian Bosche:
Of course it's never left.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Skyler was shooting. They were shooting it, and I just heard Joel say, "Hey, let's keep score."

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. You have to.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. So then he gets competitive. I'm just smiling, and I'm like, "Yeah. That's it." So can't say anything, but we just love having him in the gym. I think that he's a positive influence on the players. I think that that's another thing that we have to get right within British basketball is when we're talking about the class of 2012, we need to reinforce and remind people who these guys are, because what they've achieved, we need the young players to be there. I don't know who the next Pops is. I don't know who the next Luol is going to be. I don't know who the next Joel's going to be. Right now, there's Cam Hildreth. There's a lot of excitement about him, so I've got my fingers crossed that he could be the one. That's what, being in Great Britain or UK, that I think would be big for us to get another NBA player and stuff.

Creon Raftopoulos:
But yeah, Joel, excellent, amazing guy, and that word, humble, comes back into it. Has nothing bad to say about anything. Just always looking for positives, and I know that he will do some things that will change British basketball. Just watch this space. He will do some things that make a difference.

Brian Bosche:
I think we're all rooting for him to just get involved again, whether he wants to play, whether he wants to buy a BBL team, start a BBL team, represent GB, whatever it is, people want to see him involved. But I think you're right. Just practicing, you mentioned Angola, going and playing the dream team, and seeing that level and rising their expectations to that level, and even if they're not playing on your team, practicing against, playing with those, playing against that level of competition, you start to break through what you thought was possible. Even with me as ... I'm 30 now, so I'm getting past my prime, but even having a really good league that I play in right now, we'll have ex-college players, D1 players come and play with us. We had Spencer Haas come in and play with us, just pickup.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Wow. Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
And you're just like, "How does this seven-footer have this skillset and is able to do it," and then it pushes you to get much better in practice. Like, if Joel's out there hitting nine out of ten threes, you're like, "I've got to up my game here. I need to pass like that or work like that," so it's good to hear that he's on the floor and that he's raising that level for everyone else.

Creon Raftopoulos:
No, no. He's there, and he looks after himself. He's still in shape. He might have to get his conditioning up, but like I said, some two-on-two work, three-on-three, and as I said, before the pandemic hit us, he was in a full scrimmage, and we were able to simulate situations, because there are some seven-footers in our league, and he enjoyed doing it and helping us go through those training sessions.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. All right, a couple more listener questions as we close this out. This is a fun one from Josh Bett, I'm sure, from Below the Rim podcast. Do you give Caylin just the total green light to shoot? He can just shoot wherever he wants whenever he wants?

Creon Raftopoulos:
No.

Brian Bosche:
Maybe the opposite of that.

Creon Raftopoulos:
It's the opposite. We've been in the gym, and we do stuff, and this is the part where you get having a person like Joel in the gym. The part that comes with Caylin is I'm probably too hard on Caylin, and I probably hold him back when I shouldn't hold him back, because Joel will tap me and say, "Man, he can shoot. He straight up can shoot. Just let him go," and then I'll be like, "Hey. No, no, Caylin. Don't do that." But no, he doesn't have the green light. I do have a coaching philosophy that I say to the guys that any player can only be as good as you allow them to be, so if you do think that he's a good shooter, get him shots. It's up to the team, all right? Because he can't just drop it down and jack it the whole time, so that's one thing. So now, Josh, I can tell Josh I don't give him the green light. I probably should be running more stuff for him, because he can shoot that ball.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. It's tough. That was another question we got from Aaron Eamer. There's always extra pressure when your son's on the team, and Doc Rivers and Austin Rivers got criticized, and it was kind of awkward in the locker room from their reports, so the question is how is it trying to deal with that extra pressure of having your son on the team?

Creon Raftopoulos:
I think the one thing for me that makes it easier is he can play, and he can shoot.

Brian Bosche:
That's always easier, yeah.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So that makes it a whole lot easier for me. The father-son dynamic might not work sometimes in the sense of when we have to go home, and I haven't given him minutes, or I took him out of a game at a crucial time. And as I said, I probably have to look at myself, because I probably punish him to protect him from situations or from people being like, "He should not be in the game," whereas he's proven that he's capable. The first year that he played for us was his gap year, and he wasn't supposed to play, but we had injuries, and then he got on the court, and then next thing the fans wanted him in the game all the time, and he contributed, and I think we had a close to top four finish with the Surrey Heat.

Creon Raftopoulos:
That following year, PJ took him to Worcester. Nothing to do with me. That was between him and his talent level. He then had a good year with Solent with Matt Guymon. Nothing to do with me. And then when he came back, it was like he wanted to coach, and so he's coaching at the academy, so to have a backup guard who's coaching and he's not worried about being paid big money to play just fits into our structure that we have. The other thing that I think he's very, very good at is the players trust him, all the teammates. So if somebody got ... Players are going to be disgruntled after each game, and so if players kick off, they know they can kick off in front of him, and he's not going to react or say anything and stuff. He's never, never had anything with players, unless he knows it's somebody that's just totally disrespecting the role. Not his father, but the role of being a good teammate or coach.

Creon Raftopoulos:
That's what I instill in all of the guys. If you're not happy about something, I can't fix it if I don't know about it. Yeah, so tough dynamic, but I think the fact that he can play and he's got a little bit of a fan base that love him.

Brian Bosche:
Well, he's played other places. Yep.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Just makes it a whole lot easier for me.

Brian Bosche:
I think it's so important that he played other places and then has come back.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. Definitely.

Brian Bosche:
Okay. I'm a player. It helps that you have such strong leadership from the player side with Tayo and Joel and some of the other veterans. Yeah, it's a really interesting dynamic that we've seen a little bit now.

Creon Raftopoulos:
It is. Trust me. I got coached by late dad, and boy.

Brian Bosche:
It's a tradition.

Creon Raftopoulos:
I'm not like that with Caylin. I'm not like that with Caylin. He would be ... I thought he was crazy, my dad, the way he shouted at me in front of thousands of people, and then jump in the car like, "Great job, son." I'm like, "Who are you? Son?"

Brian Bosche:
It's like the Monopoly game. You just switch personas depending on what the situation is.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah, definitely.

Brian Bosche:
So last question as we close this out. You went on BBC this week, which great to see this more coverage, as the BBL has delayed the season, has requested more assistance. We covered this with Josh Bett a little bit on our last podcast as well, where we've talked about basketball. Number two team sport, at least through youth development and through schools. It's one of the most popular, accessible, diverse sports in the UK, and so kind of just looking for more funding where there's a poll go around. Give support to British basketball right now. So with your experience, you've been in the UK in the basketball community, British basketball for a long time. What have you seen that the government would give more funding? Is it based on community? Is it based on the eliteness of the team? It just seems like there's so many factors where it should be kind of a no-brainer for support. What do you think some of the biggest factors that would actually tip this so that the government would support the BBL more and all of the community foundations that are represented here?

Creon Raftopoulos:
So to be controversial, I sometimes feel as if basketball is not treated like a sport, because ... One of the reasons I feel that way is because why we don't get certain funding at certain levels is because they will tell us that we're not Olympic medal prospects. We don't have a chance of winning an Olympic metal, or we don't have a chance at winning a world championship. So for us to give you money ...

Brian Bosche:
You don't show that.

Creon Raftopoulos:
[crosstalk 01:04:05] invest in that. Just in logic and common sense, how do you become a contender without the funding? If they had to say, "Right, we're going to invest this all money. We're going to make sure we help the coach, make sure we do this," I have no doubt in my mind that a powerhouse like the United Kingdom will not be able to attract the right coaches or the right amount of help to make it happen. So I think that's one of the things where what hurts us is, as I said, if it is a sport, it's that American sport. If it is a sport, it's that American sport, or it's that urban sport. So like I always have to say to people, the beautiful thing about sport is it's not a seasonal color, so when we say, "Who's playing basketball?" we shouldn't have to go, "But understand this, that of all the millions that do play, 80% of them are actually white people, and Black and ethnic minorities are still the minority in that in order to get support."

Brian Bosche:
All of Asia. It's a huge sport in the Philippines, in China.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Exactly.

Brian Bosche:
Everywhere. The whole world plays the sport.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah. So people grind it out and work so hard in he communities to try and make stuff. I can't think of ... I know a lot of people that work in the community and do stuff with their clubs. They're not making a profit.

Brian Bosche:
No. It's the love of the game.

Creon Raftopoulos:
They're working hard to make the game better, and also they're giving the parents a break and helping to mentor those children and make those children into better people, because you can't be a hothead or so forth and just be on a basketball team. Your coach will put you right. They will mentor your, and they'll keep you right. So I've been here for a long time. I've seen some funding come and I've seen some funding go and so forth, so once again, it comes down to that culture and whether the culture of British sport is willing to give basketball the opportunity to come out. I always joke, we spoke in the beginning about legacy, so my big thing is I know one of the ladies that works for us, she's been in the same area and in the same company as Sebastian Coe, who was the lead on the Olympics. I'd love to have a sit down with him and just say, "So legacy-wise ..."

Brian Bosche:
What are we doing?

Creon Raftopoulos:
"What are we doing? What happened to basketball?" Because I know there's that big stadium where West Ham play now, the Olympic stadium. It's being used for football, but there's no basketball stadiums that I can think of that have been there. So I think that basketball needs to get the right patron that's willing to make some noise, and I think out of the box. I call out Sir Sebastian Coe, because I feel like he's got that power that could make something. He's been head of the Olympics, and the contacts that he has. Or maybe we have to go for Piers Morgan, because Piers Morgan, as much as people hate him and so forth, he gets heard, so might get him on our team, and he might be able to get us some funding, like when The Morning Show was supporting Sir Tom, Captain Tom or so forth, who raised those millions for the NHS. But basketball definitely needs a patron that's going to knock on somebody's door.

Brian Bosche:
And step up.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Football gets so much money, and we're talking about getting a couple of million to make basketball work, so fingers cross.

Brian Bosche:
Its scale, coming from the States, it's such a smaller scale compared to most professional sports. In the NBA, we're talking about $44 million a year for one player, where you can buy a BBL team for under $10 million, under $5 million.

Creon Raftopoulos:
So an interesting fact that happens when we're watching football is we go, and I [inaudible 01:08:14] and so forth, but taking the context that one of your Tottenham players probably gets paid 150,000 pounds a week.

Brian Bosche:
Maybe more.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Some of our budgets are 150,000 pounds a season.

Brian Bosche:
And even in-

Creon Raftopoulos:
So that's a week, and in a season. And we do a lot in the community. I'm not saying that the football teams don't do stuff in the community, but we're always doing stuff. I don't know any BBL franchise or Division 1 franchise that don't do or give back to their community.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. They all do. It's such a big part of it too.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
So hopefully with the momentum ... The London Lions have added a little bit of star power and spark to get more attention.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Definitely.

Brian Bosche:
To get more coverage. I think with The Last Dance, which is super funny that a documentary has re-sparked interest in basketball.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Yeah, Piers Morgan was talking about The Last Dance, so we'll try and tell Piers about that, also.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. That's the feedback I get. So many people are mentioning Last Dance. Basketball, it's kind of like we're riding that momentum.Hopefully the season comes back soon, you can figure out a way to come back safely. Figure out ways to make revenue, whether through streaming or a TV deal or limited in-fan attendance. So best of luck in the season, Coach. I really appreciate you coming on.

Creon Raftopoulos:
No, thanks, Brian. Enjoyed the conversation, and hopefully your listeners will enjoy it too.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. Thank you.

Creon Raftopoulos:
Okay.