Aleksandar Jovanovic and Liam Brown on the launch of Manchester Giants Esports

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Brian Bosche and Skylar Smith are joined by Liam Brown, Head of Marketing at the Manchester Giants, and Aleksander Jovanovic, Team Captain and Manager for Manchester Giants Esports. They chat with Liam and Aleksander about the launch of the first Esports team in the British Basketball League, how Esports helps engage new fans, and how the team plans to practice and compete in NBA2K.

Follow Manchester Giants Esports on Twitter and Twitch

Full Transcript:

Brian Bosche:
Hey, everyone. Welcome back to High Tea Hoops. This is Brian Bosche, I'm the Duke of Hoops, and I am joined by Skylar Smith, the Duchess. What's up, Duchess?

Skylar Smith:
Hi, Brian. Super excited for today's episode. It's going to be a great one.

Brian Bosche:
Aren't you just so excited for esports chat?

Skylar Smith:
So excited. I feel like I'm here today just to learn. I'm here with the audience today to learn.

Brian Bosche:
I rate the NBA fits, the fashion game, so now it's time for you to go into my world on esports.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
Today we have two very special guests from the Manchester Giants. Aleks, the team captain and manager of Manchester Giants Esports, and then Liam, the head of marketing at Manchester Giants. What's up, guys? Thanks for joining.

Liam Brown:
Hey, how are you doing? Are you okay?

Brian Bosche:
Doing... You know, just month nine of the pandemic and lockdown. Manchester just went into Tier 4, right? So you guys are doing great.

Liam Brown:
Yeah, it's never ending. I think in a few months we'll be in Tier 9, which means we're locked in basements at gunpoint.

Brian Bosche:
Well, just for the audience, so you guys can introduce yourselves... Liam, do you want to kick us off? Just go through a little bit about your background. How long have you been at the Giants? What's your position? We'd just love to hear a little bit more about your professional background.

Liam Brown:
My name's Liam Brown. I'm the head of marketing for the Manchester Giants. That makes it sound a little bit grander than what it is, as there's not many people in the marketing department. I am the marketing department, in a lot of ways. I've been working for the Manchester Giants for about two years. Been a fan of the club since the '90s. I did have a season ticket back in those famous arena days, when we were looking a little but more like an NBA team, and British basketball was probably its high water mark at those times. Got back into it a few years ago, just wanted to get involved. I started, actually, as a volunteer for a few months. Managed to get a job out of it.

Liam Brown:
My sort of tenure at the Giants has straddled both the old ownership, at George H Carnall, and Jamie Edwards taking over in January this year, so it's been a bit of a rollercoaster. I've seen a lot. Managed to see my first wins, as well, this season. If any of you go to Giants games... Well, last season. I'm not going to be doing it this season, but last season, I was the guy in the center of the court, as well, with the microphone, getting everybody to chant, "Defense," and whatnot, so that's probably what I'm more known for.

Brian Bosche:
Love that. Little Jackie Moon from the Flint Michigan Tropics. Love it. Aleks, do you want to go ahead?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, hi. I'm Aleks. I'm the team captain for the Manchester Giants Esports 2K team. A bit about myself. I started playing 2K back in 2K14, when it came to the PS4. That was my first major console, so I'm still quite young. I'm 20. I mean, I've been more-

Brian Bosche:
I mean, you're in your prime for esports, Aleks. Don't sell yourself short.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I know. I know.

Skylar Smith:
Truly.

Brian Bosche:
Your reaction time is just brilliant right now.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. Yeah. It's [crosstalk 00:02:38].

Brian Bosche:
Almost over the hill. Yeah, you're getting a little old.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. So I got into contact with Liam, and then we sort of got this project started together with the owner, and then yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes.

Brian Bosche:
That's great. So you started playing in 2014, you said? So you're about six years in. Hitting your prime.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Brian Bosche:
How did you get in touch with the Manchester Giants? How did this all come together?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, so I mean, many people might think that it was some complicated process. It was really as simple as sending out an email. I wanted to get into the esports, or more of the business side of things, and then I just simply wrote up an email to a local team, because I'm from Manchester, as well, so I'd just send email out, and then I got a response, and that's how it got started.

Brian Bosche:
Just head of marketing at Giants.

Skylar Smith:
Moral of the story, shoot your shot.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, shoot your shot.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
Love that. But before we get into all of the esports and everything like that, I just want to set a little context with the Manchester Giants in general, because I think it was eight years, bottom of the table, and new ownership comes in. There's a rebrand. There's a new energy. You're doing really well this season. You have MVP candidates. My MVP pick so far, Lyle Hexom, on the BBL show, which I got a little flack for it, but...

Skylar Smith:
Get that in there, Brian.

Brian Bosche:
But I had to. You know, it's a good pick. He leads the league in rebounds and points. He's got to be on that list. But Liam, going over to you, do you just want to talk a little bit through the rebrand, the new energy that you're trying to bring to the Giants after this ownership change?

Liam Brown:
Yeah, definitely. I think when you've been at the bottom of the league for so long, and especially the venue we were playing in last season, as well, the brand just needed raising, and a bit more quality coming into the brand to be able to attract the sponsors. A lot of... When I've worked in football, somebody told me once that if you looked at league table from the top to the bottom, the team at the top will usually be the one with the highest budget, and the team at the bottom will always be the one with the lowest budget. So people are looking at the team, saying, "Well, why can't the team play better?" When actually, it's the team behind the team that are going away and increasing attendances, commercial partnerships, community work, that's bringing a lot of the money in.

Liam Brown:
That's what the big focus is, because we need to give the coach, Danny, and his team the tools to be able to do a little better. A lot of the focus has been building the club up. COVID has helped, in a way, because it's given us an opportunity to go and explore things we maybe didn't want to spend time for. It's also hindered us in a lot of ways, because we've not been able to sort of expand our community culture in an outreach side. We've not been able to get into schools and whatnot this year, because it's so difficult because of all the restrictions, but look at the strides we've made. We've come out, and we've moved into a new arena. Brand, spanking new arena. We've got one of the best arenas in the league, now.

Brian Bosche:
Well, the national training center, right?

Liam Brown:
Yeah, exactly. It's the Wembley Stadium of British basketball, so we're very proud to play in that. The first time we walked in to do the promo video, we just stood in the center of the court and couldn't believe how different it was from where we were playing. I was looking at a video the other day of the netball team, the Manchester Thunder, who played earlier, and seeing what the atmosphere was like with 2,000 people, and I think with Giants fans in there, renowned for being the loudest fans in the country, I think it'll be an amazing atmosphere, as soon as we can get fans in there. So yeah. And with the rebrand, we got into the summer and we sort of met with an agency called Bert. A fantastic agency. I've not forgotten the names that did that, but...

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. Good branding.

Liam Brown:
They were fantastic people. I went into the process thinking we were just going to get nice shiny new logo out of it, but there's a process to go through called co-creation, where they take sort of people from around the club, stakeholders internally and externally, get them around the table, and it's more a matter of just sort of questioning who you are and what you're about.

Brian Bosche:
Yep.

Liam Brown:
And this, this is what came out of the process, the new branding, and we fell in love with it as soon as we saw it for the first time, and it really represents us, and where we want to go. As you can see the X, at the top, it's a Roman numeral 10, which represents the 10 boroughs of Greater Manchester. The 10 boroughs, for us, is... The Ten x Ten plan, we call it, is going to be the foundation of where the club's going to be going over the next sort of five to 10 years. It's all about having the Giants in each borough. It's about... We're going to have an academy. That's something else I forgot to mention. We've got an academy, which again, was going to be down the road, but we've managed to get a deal across the line to start next September with it.

Brian Bosche:
Wow, that's amazing.

Liam Brown:
So there's going to be community teams in each borough in the county, and then the best kids are going to be put through the elite pathway. And it's not just about basketball. We can do that with media teams. We're going to develop relationships with all the colleges in each borough, and be training sort of photographers, digital creatives, to come through the team that we're going to be putting in on the esports team. One of the guys that's going to be running the media on it is a young lad called Marcel Abbott, who's been a Giants fan [crosstalk 00:07:56].

Brian Bosche:
Love Marcel.

Liam Brown:
Marcel, he's going to be-

Brian Bosche:
A lot of trash talking on Twitter, by the way, Marcel.

Liam Brown:
Yeah, I'm going to have to have a word to him about that, because yeah.

Brian Bosche:
No, I love it. I love it.

Skylar Smith:
Don't make him stop.

Liam Brown:
Being a Giants fan for a long time, sometimes that can come and hit you back in the face. I wouldn't advise stuff like that.

Brian Bosche:
No, keep it up.

Liam Brown:
But Marcel's fantastic, and one day he is going to be one of those BBL media stars. I don't think I'm overegging it to say that.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah.

Liam Brown:
You know, we can set people that are going to be involved in video production and things like that, and it's almost... They can be coming up through this elite pathway with the esports, our under 21s, on the academy side, and then they're ready to step up and work with the first team, as well, in a few years' time. It's everything. The Ten x Ten, we're going to apply this in every borough, and they're almost going to be the Duke of Wigan, or...

Brian Bosche:
Love that.

Liam Brown:
Or the Earl of Oldham. It's a fantastic plan, and it's going to take us years until we get it to where we want it to be. It's probably never ending, but we almost want to become the Greater Manchester Giants, rather than the Manchester Giants, and really own the space, and own basketball in Greater Manchester.

Brian Bosche:
That's a lot for one head of marketing, Liam.

Liam Brown:
It is. It is.

Brian Bosche:
That's a lot of stuff going on.

Liam Brown:
I keep asking for more minions to do all the work, but yeah.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, Skylar and I were just talking about the rebrand, on our last podcast, actually, and how clean it looks. I'm a big fan. It just adds that professionalism, adds a new energy on top of the club.

Skylar Smith:
Yep.

Brian Bosche:
And you have times for nostalgia. You can always do throwback jerseys and throwback kits, but I love the new look, personally. It's been great to see the Giants take the brand and the energy and the entire feeling around the team so seriously into this new season.

Liam Brown:
Yeah, definitely. I think when you're in Manchester, as well, there is also that kind of awareness that Manchester is the cool city in the U.K. Certainly, that's what I believe, anyway, so everything we do has got to be that little bit better, as we're coming out.

Brian Bosche:
Yep.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah, that's great to hear. So we heard how Aleks got involved with the team. Liam, what was that like from the Giants' side? Had this idea already been floating around, or was this a new concept? How and when did this idea come about?

Liam Brown:
So I've just mentioned the academy, and the academy was probably something that we had an idea for coming a few years further down the line, but again, we had a contact out of the blue, and we managed to get a deal across the line. We'd been talking about esports for a good while, because we've seen the opportunities in esports, and how it's growing. You know, I look at my own son, who's 16, he probably watches people playing FIFA more than he actually plays FIFA himself.

Brian Bosche:
Yep.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah.

Liam Brown:
Also, it's the same with... He's probably watching more FIFA on TV than he's actually watching real life football on TV, and it's the same for my... I've got an eight-year-old, as well, who's watching Fortnite.

Brian Bosche:
Oh, yeah. Me too.

Liam Brown:
I'm completely... You know, this is what I'm looking at and thinking... Especially this year, we know that it can't just be about the 5:00 tip off on a Sunday. You need to find ways to engage with fans all week, and to engage with younger fans, as well. It is something that was on our radar. I got the email off Aleks. I think it was probably around a day later I managed to get you on a Zoom call, and I think by the end of the Zoom call, [inaudible 00:11:20], "Come on, let's just do it."

Brian Bosche:
So Aleks, on your side, you send a cold email out. You've been playing 2K for a while. What instigates you wanting to associate with a BBL team? What was kind of your vision for contacting? How long did you have this in the works before you pulled the trigger? Because every cold email I send, you're just... It's going around in your head. You're like, "Should I send this? How do I tweak this?" How long were you kind of...

Skylar Smith:
You're hyping yourself up to do it.

Brian Bosche:
You're hyping yourself up. "Headofmarketing@manchestergiants.com. Let's fire this off." How long was this brewing, and how long had you been thinking about this vision?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Sure, sure. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't completely cold in the sense that it didn't just come to mind in a dream or whatever. It was more something which I got inspired to do through a digital marketing apprenticeship which I did before becoming a student at university, so it wasn't something which came completely out of the blue. I saw it... Going to analyze the market a bit, and with being so engaged in 2K, and the 2K community, I saw that there was a gap for U.K. teams. I saw these European teams, such as, I don't know, SK Gaming, coming on board and making these big teams and having quite a lot of success with viewer engagement, so I thought, "Why not? Let's just send one out to a local team, and see what happens."

Brian Bosche:
Aleks, how long have you been a Manchester Giants fans?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
A Manchester Giants fans? I mean, so with basketball in general, I've been watching it for quite a while. I mean, having some Serbian heritage, it's one of the biggest sports in the country.

Brian Bosche:
Little Jokic action. Love that.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
I mean, I've been following BBL and being a Giants fan for about three years. I haven't really competed in the U.K., or played any major role in actual basketball, but I've definitely been there, on the scene, just watching and listening to all the news.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah.

Skylar Smith:
I'm very curious. How have you built your skillset, and what is your practice schedule like? I'm 23, so it feels like this should all be very intuitive and natural to me, like social media is, but I've just never really... I don't know, I've never really been into esports. I've never really watched, I've never really played. How did you develop your skillset? What's the practice schedule like? Just tell me what it's like to be an esports player.

Brian Bosche:
Well, Skylar, don't sell yourself short. You are an incredible Mario Party player, so you have a little bit of experience here.

Skylar Smith:
I'm not even that. I'm really bad at Mario Party, too.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yes, sure. From my point of view, I haven't really competed at a major level, as some of these other guys. What I really did was be more of a viewer, and be friends with a lot of these guys who were on the top level, so I sort of learned a lot from them, actually. It wasn't particularly myself or my routine. It was more them and what they could teach me, just through watching them, and also my experience with a bit of marketing and learning just through my education, which really brought me to that understanding and level of, "Look, this could be something that could potentially be really good and beneficial for a U.K. team."

Brian Bosche:
Yeah.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah, definitely.

Brian Bosche:
Do you think that a lot of young fans become fans of the NBA through 2K? Is that kind of their first intro to basketball? We just had Sam Tha Ruler on the podcast, and he's one of the top players in the U.K. for 2K, and he was like, "Yeah, I became a Miami Heat fan because I was playing with Shaq in one of the first 2K games." Do you get that sense too, of like... A lot of people's introduction to basketball is actually through 2K?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, 2K is such a sort of interesting game. Some years it's more arcadey, some years it's more of a simulation, so if you play it for a while, you really get this mixture of, I guess, a fun game with all these crazy animations and contact [inaudible 00:15:18], which really build the excitement for the game, and then you sort of can branch out into the actual real world and say, "Hey, who are these real players that I'm playing with?" I don't know, I learned about a lot... About Jimmy Butler, just through playing. Same with Sam Tha Ruler with the Miami Heat, and then coming to Chicago Bulls. I mean, starting off there, really, and then through that, I got more and more into the NBA. I mean, I've always been an NBA fan, but I guess being involved in such a big franchise and a big game, it really does open your eyes to the actual real world of the NBA.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, absolutely.

Skylar Smith:
That makes sense. What did you guys learn from the NBA teams who have done this with their organizations that you wanted to apply when building out your esports team for the Giants?

Brian Bosche:
And Liam, Aleks, both of you can hop in any time you want.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Sure. Liam, do you want me to get started just from a viewer perspective?

Liam Brown:
Yeah, go on. You go.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. I mean, for me, really, it was the whole NBA 2K league. When they got that started up, I noticed there were a very limited amount of European players, or U.K. players, who were getting drafted, so I thought to myself, "Why not try and get something started in the U.K., and maybe grow that to the level, and maybe potentially..." Maybe a bit farfetched, but eventually make a league where there's more of a European and U.K. central player base, which really gives more of an opportunity for our players to be involved in such a major stage and league.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
And then Liam, on the marketing side, did you look at them for inspiration?

Liam Brown:
Yeah, definitely. I think the way the teams look, the presentation of the games and whatnot, is fantastic. It's almost a level above a lot of what football clubs are doing in the U.K., which really, really impressed me, so it's something we're going to look at. We're going to look at the best in class and model what the best teams are doing. I was looking at the Manchester City's FIFA one, and they had a full studio set up, overlooking the court and presenters and whatnot, so that's something eventually I would very much like to get into doing.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, I mean, their set up is pretty incredible. But to go back to kind of the goals, and looking at the NBA for inspiration, starting it yourself, I love that. To hear a BBL team like the Giants has this five to 10 year vision, the Ten x Ten strategy. You even branded it, which is great to hear. How does starting an esports team really tie into going after this new audience across the different boroughs, and kind of engaging that younger fan base that does spend a lot more time watching esports than actual sports?

Liam Brown:
I think it's not just about the first team, in a lot of ways, in the same way with the basketball team, it's not just about the first team. In a way, they're quite a small part of what we're trying to do. On the basketball side, we're going into schools all over Greater Manchester and getting kids to play basketball, and I don't see that esports should be any different to that. When we're doing basketball camps, there's nothing to say we can't also be doing 2K camps.

Brian Bosche:
It's COVID-safe. People forget that.

Liam Brown:
Exactly. And for some kids, to be a really talented basketball player, it might not be for them, but they do love the game of basketball, and they like playing as a computer game, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. And to do it in a social way, where they're not locked in the bedrooms. Maybe we could get something set up on home games, where people could come and play our players, and test themselves against the best, or we could have a Greater Manchester league, where we've got teams from each borough, from the Ten x Ten. It gives us a way to scout the best up and coming talent locally, as well.

Brian Bosche:
I mean, that's so fun. And out of Detroit, there's actually a new company in the States, where they are setting up the first sanctioned high school esports leagues, where different high schools in the States, it's just like playing varsity basketball, but you are a varsity 2K player, or a varsity Rocket League player, and it is catching on like fire. They've raised tens of millions of dollars. They have tens of thousands of high schools signed up. And you're right. If you're not physically gifted, or maybe you just prefer playing the 2K version, it's such a good way to connect with people. Especially in the pandemic, especially when a lot of our social interactions are going virtual. And it's cost-effective. If you can just hop onto Twitch, or hop onto Discord, and play with friends, it's a lot easier than trying to figure out, "How do I get to the facility? How do we rent the facility? How do we get that going?" High school league across the boroughs would be a lot of fun to see.

Liam Brown:
Absolutely. Absolutely. We've been plotting it already. I've had lots of phone calls from people wanting to join the esports team. I think I've texted them all back and said, "You'd have more chance texting Danny Burns, seeing if you could be on the BBL team," because these guys that Aleks has put together are meant to be fantastic. Or that's what he's telling me, anyway, so his head's on the block if they aren't.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah, I'd actually love to hear from you, Aleks. How did you go about building out this team?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. I mean, so that was probably... At the same time, it was one of the easiest and most complex processes, because basically, the whole 2K community, at least in the EU and U.K., is all on Twitter, so getting into contact with these players was quite simple. But it was, at the same time, demanding, because some players wanted to play with their friends, with particular teammates, whereas I really wanted to emphasize this culture of having some committed guys who would not just bounce as soon as there was some better offer, or if things weren't going as smoothly. I wanted some really long-term guys who were ready to commit and go for the long haul. From that perspective, it was quite challenging, but I'm confident with the guys that I've selected, that they're all going to be very well-equipped to compete at the highest level.

Brian Bosche:
What goes into picking good 2K players? I mean, I look at Lyle Hexom, I'm like, "Yeah. The Giants should sign him. That's a good pick." But how do you go about picking and building a team? Because it's not necessarily... Like, are there certain people that are really good at playing post, that are playing point guard, even though it's esports? What goes into selecting those players?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. I mean, every player has their sort of archetype, so their position which they're really good at. When it comes to actually selecting them, you look on Twitch to see how they're playing, who they're playing with, their connections, and their past team experience, at the same time. I went through a balance of seeing which guys have the potential to be really good, and who have been performing at a good level, but are maybe not as well-known as some of the other guys. I've gone with guys who are also well-known in the community, who have already had a lot of success, and who I know for sure are good team leaders, and who will work together well to get the best results possible, and be really professional about this, and take this as seriously as possible.

Brian Bosche:
So to answer it directly, you can be like a known post player in 2K, or like a known outside shooter? Those are skillsets you can grow? Or is it more general?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely... I wouldn't say post, in the post, necessarily, but there's definitely... There's this thing called dexing, where you get it where you're basically a sharp shooter, most usually, and then you're just sort of getting open just by off-the-ball movement, so there's quite a few guys who are known for that. I mean, with this next-gen gameplay, I think fans and just the general audience is going to be a lot more engaged, because it's a lot more versatile. For the first time in the world, players can do a lot of things. You can even have the power forward running up the ball, passing, shooting, dunking, everything, so it's really going to be a skill-based game this year, for sure.

Brian Bosche:
All right. I have so many questions, Skylar, but go ahead with your goal question.

Skylar Smith:
Okay, let me get one in.

Brian Bosche:
Because I think for our audience, it's like, "Okay, what is esports?" Like, "How are you good at it?" Because a lot of people don't know what they don't know, and haven't played, but all right. Go ahead, Skylar, before I launch into my 2K questions.

Skylar Smith:
Thanks, Brian. Thanks, Brian. I'd love to hear from both of you, especially as the first BBL team to have an esports team, what are your goals with this team? Maybe Liam, you can start from the Giants side, what the Giants' goals for this team are? Then Aleks, maybe what your personal goals for this team are?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Sure.

Liam Brown:
I think, for me, it's about proof of contact in proving that this thing can work, and that it's got legs under it, and it's not a distraction, and it can be taken seriously as a branch of what the club does.

Skylar Smith:
Yep.

Liam Brown:
That's, firstly, the most important thing. I have actually been having conversations with a couple of BBL clubs who are looking to do it themselves. I mean, the dream... The dream would be to have a British Basketball League. Maybe not necessarily just BBL teams, but D1 teams, or independent teams that aren't affiliated to any club, but it would be the best of the best in the British league. I think that would be a great way for it to sort of finish up on the pro side. But as well, it's about coming down and making it community-based, as well. If we can get lots of kids coming and playing it and doing esports camps, and meeting Aleks and some of our better players, and getting tips... Just building a community around it, I think, is the key thing to make a success of this.

Skylar Smith:
And then Aleks, your personal goals for the team?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, sure. I mean, I think it's pretty similar to Liam. I think it's all about growth, getting engagement, but more on the 2K side of things. So really, getting our team to look as serious as possible, and be respected by all the other organizations and pro teams who are already playing. Really getting the highest level of competition results, and also being a team not just that is, I guess, dominant on the court, so to speak, but more off the court, being engaged with their community. Because I've noticed a lot of these teams, whilst they do get good competition results, they're not really community teams, if that makes sense. They're very result-orientated, but I want to be more than this. We want to be more than this, and just sort of grow as a team, and as a community on the whole.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah. Esports can be about community, just as much as regular sports can be.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
And sometimes more. Like, a lot of the streamers that I follow, the fact that you can play and comment on what you're playing, and interact with fans, all at the same time is something that physical sports... If Lyle Hexom's out there, or Jordan Whelan... Whalan? Whelan? I always get it wrong. Liam, what is it?

Liam Brown:
E. It's Whelan.

Brian Bosche:
Whelan. Got it. Jordan Whelan. Incredible player, as well. I can't... If I could hear them talking on the court, and answering fan questions while they're playing, or getting back on defense, that's something that esports has that I don't know if the NBA or BBL can ever get to.

Liam Brown:
Yeah. I've sat quite close to the courts, and I don't think it's ever something we could ever do that would be related to that.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, the bubble. The bubble got a little scary, with the players being miked up. Yeah, that's very true. And I know Ballmer, with the Clippers, has talked about doing the Chris Paul cam, back at Lob City days, where you could pick the player perspective to watch, instead of the normal broadcast. You would mike them up the entire game, but you're right. The trash talking there is a little too intense.

Liam Brown:
Yeah. Especially with Lyle and Breaon, apparently they're very, very... I don't know if it's bad for it or good for it, but they like talking.

Brian Bosche:
Okay, let's go on the marketing side a little bit. Liam, are you guys starting a new Tik Tok account for this esports team? Do they have their own Twitter channel? I've seen that they have their own Twitter. How are you thinking about marketing this, and building this community along with the Giants?

Liam Brown:
To start with, we've got a Twitter account and a Twitch account, which... It depends what competition's going to add to it.

Brian Bosche:
Yep. [inaudible 00:27:33] all of them.

Liam Brown:
Yep, exactly. So it's twitch.tv/mcrgiants, and at Twitter, it's @McrGiantsEsport. Apparently we couldn't put esports, because of the character limit, but there we go. But yeah, we're looking to just start on those. Sometimes you can try and do too much, so I'd rather try and build a platform in one place, and get a lot of good engagement on that before we try and expand into other areas. Instagram's an interesting one, as is Tik Tok. As we build the sort of team behind the team, Marcel's going to be coming in. We'll start him doing the player announcements soon, and as we get into sort of doing games and whatnot, we're going to have a look at what else we can do to try and promote it.

Brian Bosche:
Yep. Absolutely. And so to clarify, this is... You are playing NBA 2K, so you are playing with NBA teams. That correct, right?

Liam Brown:
We're going to be building a Manchester Giants teams.

Brian Bosche:
Yes, that's what I wanted to hear.

Skylar Smith:
Yes.

Liam Brown:
They'll be wearing Manchester Giants kits, on Manchester Giants courts. The players will eventually... We're going to try and see what the lead times are on doing it, so it might not be straight away, but the players will be having their own kit. It won't be a Giants vest. It'll be an esports kit for the team, so they'll all look the part.

Skylar Smith:
Cool.

Liam Brown:
So yeah, it's all going to be branded Giants. The players are obviously going to be using their own, what is it, avatars, is that the word?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yep. Avatar, yep.

Liam Brown:
Yeah. So yeah, so they're... Sorry, I just looked like...

Brian Bosche:
It's okay. We're the olds, Liam.

Liam Brown:
I look like a boomer, now, don't I? "Okay, boomer." Yes. They're going to be, obviously, dressed as their own people, but yeah, it's all going to be Manchester Giants branded.

Brian Bosche:
So Aleks, what would it take if every BBL team created an esports franchise... What would it take to actually build out a full BBL league in 2K? First of all, is that possible? And then how much time would that take? I've heard it's hard.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, let's throw away the licensing and the actual league...

Brian Bosche:
They'll figure that out. That's for Liam to figure out.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, yeah. If that was all put to one side, it would be challenging, but it wouldn't be as challenging as people may thing. There's a mode in 2K called Pro-Am, where all this goes on. You go in with five guys, or more, but five guys when you're playing the match. No substitutions, five minute quarters. You design your arena. You upload your images and your branding, and then you put that on the jerseys and everything. From there, you're playing with five guys, all miked up, everything, and you're communicating with them. Playing as if it was a real game, and taking it from there. When it comes to a whole league, it would just be multiplying this by X amount of teams. And then there's this thing called private match making within the game mode, where you put in a password, and then it's as simple as that. You just match up, and then setting up a website or whatever it is to keep track of who's winning, who's losing, and the whole table. That's it. That's all you'd need.

Brian Bosche:
And it stays consistent? So it actually is locked in, it's not a temporary thing? You can build a permanent team to build out and play?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyone. Literally any player can make a team, brand it up any way they want, and then yeah, they can go from there. I mean, you obviously need the players, but anyone has the right, and anyone has the possibility to make this.

Brian Bosche:
Skylar, I think this is our path for London LuperLonics to be a real thing.

Skylar Smith:
Maybe.

Brian Bosche:
Do you guys know about the London LuperLonics? London's first NBA team? Maybe it's a first NBA 2K team.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
I saw it. I saw it was like... There was potential, yeah. Possibility, yeah.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. Well, we're from Seattle, so it breaks our heart that the SuperSonics are gone, so why not have the London LuperLonics as just a replacement team?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, sure.

Skylar Smith:
I have just a very basic esport question for you, Aleks.

Brian Bosche:
Skylar, to set up this...

Skylar Smith:
There's still so much I don't know.

Brian Bosche:
Yes. Let's set up this. We're just going to rapid fire through.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
For our audience, what... So many questions about 2K, so just get ready, Aleks. We're going to fire a bunch.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Sure. Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
They're very basic, for our audience. Skylar, kick us off here.

Skylar Smith:
How do you practice as a team?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. When you practice as a team, you can go through this Pro-Am mode, so it's the same thing. Pro-Am, you can either do private match making, where a lot of teams are on a Discord server and then you just say, "Looking for a match up." It's as simple as that. You type in the same password, and you go from there. Or you can do the ranked mode, where you just all ready up and then it puts you into a match against a random team, and that's how you practice, essentially.

Brian Bosche:
So there's no drills? You're just playing scrimmages? Playing real games?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Nope, no drills. I mean, you can make your own drills, if you want. I mean, it's quite different [crosstalk 00:32:23].

Brian Bosche:
There's no layup lines for this?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
No, no layup lines. No layup lines. No, everyone's already good and ready.

Liam Brown:
There's no COVID test for the players, either.

Skylar Smith:
Nice.

Brian Bosche:
No, no. You don't have to... No temperature checks on the game.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah.

Brian Bosche:
So in the practices, you run through one-on-one drills, and in actual basketball, on a court. You're not doing that. You're actually kind of focusing on your individual skillset. Maybe individually, and then when you actually have a team practice, that's when you come together to actually play.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Sure. I mean, you've got a micro mode, where you can do all these trainings and drills, which is more to get your badges up, and your progression level, your ratings up and everything. I don't know of anyone who takes that really seriously, other than just grinding it. Everything calls it a grind because it is a grind, so most people don't find it as entertaining, but there's people who do, so there's a whole story mode behind that. But yeah, when you get into the 5v5 Pro-Am, you basically just play. You play, you call plays, you can draw plays on your own, and just understand them and everything, but then when it gets to the game, you play. That's it.

Brian Bosche:
Is there a coach? Are you the coach? Is that different from a captain?

Skylar Smith:
That's a good question.

Brian Bosche:
Thank you.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, yeah. From my perspective, I'm more going to be just the guy who's going to be sorting out all the player to team relations, so just make sure everything runs smoothly. I mean, I could easily be there talking during the game, saying what teams are doing against them. Maybe if they're missing some rotation or anything like that. There are teams that do that, and who do have their own coach, but it's uncommon, let's say.

Brian Bosche:
Okay, so you're not getting subbed out if you jack too many threes in a row.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
No, no.

Brian Bosche:
Is there subbing out? I know a lot of these answers, but for our audience, they might not.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
No, no. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. There's no subbing out in the game. It's five minute quarters, so it's just five guys playing a game. In between matches, say if you're playing a series, one guy can leave the arena and another guy can jump in, or you can change your badges, you build whatever it is, and then you just jump in from there.

Brian Bosche:
Skylar, interrupt me at any point, because I just have so many. Can players get injured?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Not in the online game mode.

Brian Bosche:
Okay.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
In MyCareer, yeah, sure, but not in these ones, though.

Brian Bosche:
MyCareer, yes, but not in Pro. Okay.

Skylar Smith:
Are there technical fouls? Like, can you get in trouble for arguing with the ref in esports?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yes. Well, there's nothing, yeah, with arguing with referees. I think if they added that into the game mode, I think there'd be a lot of that, just generally, because of the excitement level, and just human nature. But there are technical fouls which come up when you get a hard foul. They're quite random. It can come up at the worst time or the best possible time for a team, depending who you're playing for. But no, it's quite limited when it comes to that. There's definitely this factor of RNG in the game, which is just random. I guess I could talk about the release timing.

Brian Bosche:
Yep.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
So when you're shooting a shot, you need to time it perfectly to get a green release. If you mistime it, it's a white, and sometimes whites go in, which can be quite random.

Brian Bosche:
I do that a lot.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
But other than that, no, not really.

Brian Bosche:
How do you... If someone's playing like shit, how do you... Like, "Hey, you need to pick..." Like, what are you doing during an actual game? How do you... Do you penalize? That's like, if you can't bench them, and you can't take them to the side, how do you coach mid-game, or how do you... I would want to get mad at them. How do you get mad at them during a game?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, there's... I mean, different players have different approaches. Some people will literally just scream, scream at your teammate. They're the quote unquote toxic players in the community.

Brian Bosche:
Yep.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
I think most commonly it's trying to be as constructive as possible, and just saying, "Stay calm. You got this." Because like you said, there's no subs in the middle of the game, so you can't really scream at them and expect them to be better, so it's usually at that process of just being like, "Okay, calm down. Go get your shot going." And then from there, if they keep playing bad, then you can discuss after the game, or discuss... But yeah, you can get into it after the game.

Brian Bosche:
Can you only hear your own... Oh, go ahead, Skylar.

Skylar Smith:
Thanks, Brian. Does playing 2K affect how you watch basketball? Like, do you feel like it gives you more insight into the Xs and Os.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
I mean, it can do. It's a sort of yes, no, sort of thing. If you've got no experience whatsoever in basketball, watching basketball, you may learn a few things, such as pick and roll, pick and fades, running some plays...

Skylar Smith:
Just basic stuff.

Brian Bosche:
Yep.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
But if you know basketball, and you've watched it for a long time, you will realize that there is a limited amount of correlation between the esports and the real sport, because obviously, in every sort of game, there's a meta where there's your go-to strategy and that works the best. In basketball itself, it's a lot more fluid. You're running different plays, adjusting to each and every game, and based on who you're playing against. So yeah, there's definitely some similarity, but overall, not so much.

Brian Bosche:
Can you only hear your own teammates, or can you also hear the other team while you're playing? Can you trash talk, is my question?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. Yeah, in Pro-Am, there is voice chat, but usually when you're communicating in that game, it can get blurred out by the crowd and everything, so it's better to just make your own party. You can't actually hear the opponents in the Pro-Am game mode. In Rec and Park, which are other game modes, which have 5v5 and 3v3, you can trash talk your opponents.

Brian Bosche:
Nice.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, it can be fun. Some people get their feelings hurt, but it's a way of life, so it's one of those things.

Brian Bosche:
A couple more before Skylar finishes us off here. How do you challenge other teams? Because there isn't a BBL. Are you challenging other clubs? Are you just entering tournaments? How do you actually compete?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. At the moment, there's a lot of, at least in the EU, there's a lot of these organizations, whether pro, semi-pro, who are organizing these tournaments, which aren't affiliated with 2K, but they just basically set an entry fee, potentially, or you get invited and then there's a prize for whether it's winner takes all, or first and second place get a prize, whatever it is. And then if you're invited, great. If not, you can enter. And then that's how you really compete. You could also do wagers, but that's not as common with 5v5. That's more of a 3v3 sort of thing. But yeah, it's more these tournaments which are organized.

Brian Bosche:
Got it. And then last question for both of you. Do any of the actual Giants players play 2K? Who's the best one on the actual squad?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
That's a question for Liam.

Liam Brown:
Yeah, I'm told that your man, Lyle, he's a bit of a gamer. I know him and Breaon are always playing each other on Call of Duty, I think. I've never actually seen him on 2K, so I'd have to find out. I think one of the things we're going to do as a promo is we're going to see if any of the Giants players can stack up against any of our esports players on 5v5.

Brian Bosche:
Yes. We need that. If the actual Giants played the esports Giants, that would be incredible. Please do that.

Liam Brown:
Yeah, I think we'll try it. We'll try and get Aleks onto it, on the center court at Bellevue, and try it out. See what we can set up. It'd be embarrassing if one of the actual players won it, though, so have to get some practice in first, Aleks.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Skylar Smith:
This has been absolutely enlightening. I swear, this is-

Brian Bosche:
Yeah, wow.

Skylar Smith:
This is the most I've ever known about esports. Let's finish up. I'd love to hear from both of you on why you think other BBL clubs should emulate this model. Maybe Liam, you can go first?

Liam Brown:
I think just for the reasons I've already outlined, but for their areas, and for the... The London Lions have obviously got a massive market that would be interested in playing this. Plymouth and Newcastle and Glasgow, they're all big places that have a lot of a catchment area around them, so for all the reasons I've outlined it's a good idea for Manchester, it's a good idea for all the other teams in the league, as well.

Skylar Smith:
Yep.

Liam Brown:
I think if we did manage to come together and have a British league, then we could actually use that to get into it. I think, as well, there's a lot of people who don't play basketball that play 2K, that could be introduced to British basketball. A lot of people that are interested in the NBA that aren't interested in British basketball, and I think we can get our brands out there and in front of these people that play the game and love the game, but don't necessarily look at British basketball. I think it could only be good for this sport.

Skylar Smith:
Yeah. Aleks, what about you?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah. Basically, following on from Liam, as well, I think other than the engagement factor, I think there's this real strong potential for this sense of identity when you're playing for your club, for your... Whether it's national, or local team, it can really bring in this massive audience of people who maybe did not initially take it as seriously, to really support or represent their team, and really try and do the best they can, and bring the best results possible for their city, or whatever it is. And I think it's really important, at the same time, for teams to take a chance on this, because I know it can be quite a thing where you're thinking, "There's no way this could work," but if you just look at some of the other sports, and the other games, there's clearly a big correlation with success with this and real sports, and how it can sort of combine together and bring in a massive target audience, and just basically branch out on your influence overall.

Brian Bosche:
Yeah. Well, we're so excited to see how the club progresses, and how you can build out this esports team. Anything that... We know where to find you on social. Any events or anything you guys want to plug coming up that people should be aware of?

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
I mean...

Liam Brown:
Go on.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Go ahead, Liam.

Liam Brown:
I was going to say, we haven't got any because we're in quarantine at the moment, so...

Brian Bosche:
Yep. Yeah.

Liam Brown:
We're on Sky Sports. We're on Sky Sports on the... I think it's the 8th of January, so look out for that. Giants are back on Sky Sports for the first time in a number of years.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Yeah, and I'd say from the esports, sort of... Well, I guess we're all in esports now, but from the player point of view, I guess the best thing to watch out for is the player announcements, the squad announcement, which is coming soon, and then from there, we're going to be trying to enter our first tournament, and then go from there.

Brian Bosche:
Let's go. All right. Thanks so much for coming on, guys. We appreciate it.

Skylar Smith:
Thanks, guys.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Thanks for having us.

Liam Brown:
Thank you.

Aleksandar Jovanovic:
Thanks.